American Audacity
Show focused on how big and small issues affect the daily lives of Americans through conversations with elected officials, business owners, and exploration.
American Audacity
Emily Crawford - Abilene City Manager
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Emily Crawford, the Abilene City Manager, answers 20 Rapid Fire Questions and then gets down into the nitty gritty. If you've wanted to know the
-projected growth of Abilene over the next ten years,
-how many temporary workers and permanent workers the data center is projected to employ,
-how much water the data center uses on the daily, monthly, and annually (hint: it may blow your mind, in a good way),
-how the City is looking at using the $21 million in 'surplus' sales tax it received this year,
-how it receives potentially $50 million over the next two years and then $4 million annually for the next 8 years.
This is one of my favorite episodes because she doesn't dodge any question, she answers with facts and in ways easily understood.
This is a must listen for Abilene residents, for Big Country residents, and really for anyone that is interested in hearing how a data center impacts a community.
Emily, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_01Well, thank you. So happy to be here.
SPEAKER_05We're gonna jump right in as we always do into the rapid fire questions. Twenty questions. Um one, two, three-word answers. This is not a time for policy or explanation. It's a time for rapid answers. So uh we'll jump right in. Number one, what is the most used app on your phone?
SPEAKER_01Texting.
SPEAKER_05What did you want to be when you were 10?
SPEAKER_01A Mary Lou Letton. Uh I would like to have been an Olympic uh gymnast.
SPEAKER_05What's a habit you need to break?
SPEAKER_01Uh picking on my fingernails when I'm nervous.
SPEAKER_05Last thing that made you genuinely laugh out loud.
SPEAKER_01Oh, not really. I try to laugh out loud every day.
SPEAKER_05Every time you see my face, really. What keeps you up at night?
SPEAKER_01What keeps me up at night would be the big hairy problems that I don't have easy answers to.
SPEAKER_05If you weren't a city manager, what would you be doing now?
SPEAKER_01I think I would have been an orthodontist.
SPEAKER_05Favorite part of the job and worst part of the job.
SPEAKER_01Favorite part is the teamwork, the people. Uh worst is the red tape.
SPEAKER_05What is your coffee drink of choice?
SPEAKER_01Uh generally a regular coffee.
SPEAKER_05Regular black with sugar and cream.
SPEAKER_01Um cream, little sugar. Okay.
SPEAKER_05How would you describe Abilene Roads?
SPEAKER_01I would describe some of them as great and some as needing work.
SPEAKER_05What is one city, state, or national policy that you personally disagree with but you enforce anyway, or would like to change?
SPEAKER_01Ooh, yeah, that's not a three-word answer. I would say some of the hurdles that we have to go through for code enforcement, uh, because that affects neighborhoods, and sometimes the city's hands are very tied on how rapidly we can respond to those.
SPEAKER_05There's a story behind this one, but what's the longest running unresolved issue in Ablen, to your knowledge? Or what comes to mind? Anything?
SPEAKER_01I would say our our long-term street maintenance would be one, and I would say um additional water sources uh being the other. However, I would say they're both actively being worked on.
SPEAKER_05What is the dumbest complaint that you've ever seen cross your desk here or in Broadwood?
SPEAKER_01The d see, I know the answer easily. The dumbest complaint I ever received was that a person was blowing all of their leaves into the street and then calling the street sweeper to come pick them up. And when I let them know that that was above and beyond the services that we provided, he said, Well, those aren't my leaves. They belong to the trees.
SPEAKER_05That's kind of brilliant. Okay. Okay. That's a good one. What is the most common complaint that you hear or common issue that you hear over and over again?
SPEAKER_01Yes, over and over. Of course, we have the street uh requests, but I also think that uh a common complaint I get is going to be um uh alley maintenance, tall grass and weeds. Um so for me, I think it's it's it's code enforcement or um those types of concerns about um private property.
SPEAKER_05Red tape and money, no issue. What's a project you'd personally like to see done in Appeline?
SPEAKER_01I would love to see the Abilene Convention Center have a refreshed uh functionality and ambiance to equal the Doubletree uh hotel next door to help build that convention center district.
SPEAKER_05What is the most expensive mistake the city has made, in your opinion, over the last 20 years? And obviously you've only been here for one year.
SPEAKER_01So that's that's gonna be a tough one for me to answer.
SPEAKER_05That we're still paying the price for, or that you wish we would have taken a different direction over the last 20 years?
SPEAKER_01I don't know that it would be a mistake, but it is clearly a city planning design which has does not have much underground stormwater drains. And so utilizing primarily our streets is our stormwater passages is something that was probably decided way more than 20 years ago, but it's one of those that we're kind of stuck with now.
SPEAKER_05What's one thing residents constantly misunderstand about your job as city manager?
SPEAKER_01I think that they think that I am the one who makes all the decisions.
SPEAKER_05How do you relax and de-stress on a personal level?
SPEAKER_01I have a pretty strict routine uh with my sleeping habits, and I like to take walks and do yoga, and I am uh I always spend at least 30 minutes in the morning in silence and prayer. So I I try to keep that in line. It keeps me staying keeps me sane.
SPEAKER_05Biggest difference between being city manager of Abilene versus Brownwood?
SPEAKER_01Size.
SPEAKER_05Okay. One thing Brownwood does better, and one thing Abilene does better. I'm putting you on the spot.
SPEAKER_01Ouch. I think that the city of Brownwood, granted, smaller community. I think they are more advanced in their downtown development. Uh, and some of that is just because of the simply this the size that they're able to tackle faster. Um, as far as Abilene, I think Abilene has um much more public art and live entertainment and various other types of those quality of life amenities and functions uh than what we uh experienced when we were in Brownwood.
SPEAKER_05And you've been the city manager for one year now. Who was the most difficult councilman, but also the best? Well, and there is a right answer.
SPEAKER_00Well, of course, this answer is only Mr. Councilman Blaze Reagan.
SPEAKER_05That's right.
unknownThat's right.
SPEAKER_05And Brian will end with uh on the note that that Brian Yates retired from city council today as well. So we were we came in at the same time. His race, his his seat went to a runoff, and so he lasted, I think, about a month longer than I did.
SPEAKER_01And you'll be happy to know that he did receive an eight cent check for his additional service.
SPEAKER_05Well, I know he was he was crying about it. He was. So he he's yeah. Makes sense, I guess the squeaky wheel. All right, that concludes the um uh rapid fire questions. You did well. Good job.
SPEAKER_01I passed.
SPEAKER_05You passed. Uh so now we can get into the in-depth segment, um, some of the issues facing uh Abilene and and kind of your role within it. Um but before we get into the the data centers, the water, discussing what you do, you know, with with additional tax revenue, um I want to ask a question about you. So you worked for the chamber in Brownwood, then you became city manager of Brownwood, then you were hired as uh city manager for Abilene. Uh which was the bigger leap for you, becoming the city manager of Brownwood for the first time, or becoming the city manager of a city abeling that's 10 times bigger? Just uh, you know, the the show uh behind the the podcast here is American Audacity, and so I kind of wanted to tap into what makes people audacious enough to believe that they can do something before they do it? Maybe they don't know all the all the elements that they're gonna need to learn or or if they can do it, but they still they take the leap and they do it and and and they believe in the audacity of doing something. Uh what was so first, what was a bigger leap for you? Becoming the city manager of of Brownwood or becoming a city manager of a city 10 times bigger, Abilene?
SPEAKER_01I think that's a great question. I would say that the bigger leap was becoming the city manager of Abilene, because when I was in Brownwood, I was already working for the city. I was the director of economic development, and I had the opportunity to already be a part of the city system. I my office was right next to the city manager's office. And so I was able to learn and understand municipal government from a broad scale as economic development director there. So when I became city manager, I already knew all the department heads, I already knew all the council. There was a level of familiarity and comfort, although it was a brand new job. And so uh after being city manager for 10 years in Brownwood is when I transitioned here to Abilene. So it wasn't a new job per se in a career change, but definitely a new city. So I did not have the context in Abilene that I did in Brownwood of familiarity with the people, the council, the community, who used to be married to whom, and who, which family has deep roots. So all of the context, the relational context and the historical context, I did not have in Abilene. And I didn't realize it until after I was here. I took that for granted in Brownwood, already having a lot of those um relationships established, just the from starting in a new city with an entire new council, entire new staff. Not only do you learn the city and the policies, but you have to learn each person individually enough to build that working relationship.
SPEAKER_05So was there a moment before, so if the Abilene uh city manager position was kind of the bigger leap, sounds like with the Brownwood, it was kind of step by step by step, and it was more gradual. Uh, and then you were there for 10 years as the city manager here. This was kind of jumping from one pond to a uh larger pond or a small lake, let's say. Um, did you have moments of wait, is this the right decision? Is this too big of a leap? Do I know what I'm doing? Or you were just excited and then it didn't hit until after you got the job and go, oh, this is this is a big, a big jump. Where did it kind of hit you? Before or after or or never?
SPEAKER_01No, I think it probably hit me more along the lines of about four months into the job here. And part of that is because there was still a lot of transition within the city. Uh Mindy Patterson, the deputy city manager, was retiring. And so here I am, you know, brand new city manager, having to pick a new, a new deputy when I I barely knew where the file cabinet was. And so there was kind of this constant ramp up of needing to tackle new things. We were also looking at the expansion, phase two of the data centers. And so coming to Abilene, I came, I feel like I came at a bit of a crest of a massive wave of this, this whatever this new season is and transformation for Abilene. And so I was coming in at a point where I wasn't only just learning the landscape of what's existing, but all of this new that was compounding, you know, the Bass Pro, uh, we were doing the negotiation for the Bass Pro deal and those kinds of things. Um, and so gosh, I have gotten myself off topic here. I apologize. I was going down a rabbit hole. Um, so I think that looking up and going, I'm trying to work a Bass Pro deal and work with a major data center and you know, on and on all these things. Um, what am I, what am I doing here? Right, you know, and and but that's where I constantly have to remember I'm I am not the only one. That's why I have a council. That's why we have the staff. And what an incredible council and staff to immediately embrace me, come alongside me. And and this is a team sport. And so it was just one of those things. Um, my husband is a minister, and in fact, his message last week was God doesn't call us to do things that we can do on our own. Otherwise, there's no need for God. And so that is a humbling moment when you realize I I uh I need God's strength and wisdom, and also those that He has placed uh around me to carry this out.
SPEAKER_05Do you ever feel whether it's four months in or even now of like, oh, this was a big step, and and you've got to um not recenter yourself, but go, who, okay, I'm how do I keep my head above water? Where do you, where do you turn, go, oh, not that I bit off more than I can chew, but this is such an audacious step. Now you're probably good. Now you're you know you're a year in and and your head's above water and you know you're probably out of the water now. But but uh I'm focusing in on that step of people kind of making the leap and going, I'm gonna start a new business or I'm gonna do this venture, and I don't know how, I don't know if I'll, you know, don't know all the steps. Where did you turn to on a on a practical level? Was it was it that 30 minutes every day that you took in the mornings to center yourself, or was it um your husband talking with your husband on a daily to keep yourself from being overwhelmed? Was it an inner dialogue? Was it uh where did you kind of turn to go, no, no, no, I'm up for this?
SPEAKER_01It's all of those things. It's also my relationships with other city managers across the state that I knew took leaps from smaller communities to larger communities or had just changed cities recently, and saying, okay, how long did it take you to feel like you you had a uh a grasp on the city? How long did it take you to establish relationships with the council and that just that sense of dialoguing with others who have walked this path before? And that was encouraging uh for me. And the other thing was um just knowing that it was a season and and that this was a learning curve and this was new, and everything if you know, there's a season for everything. And I was just in a growth mode of learning, absorbing, tackling, executing, and that it would ebb and become that season would end and come into something else, and just knowing I've just got to keep going until the next gear kicks in and I'm in a different season.
SPEAKER_05I'm only familiar obviously with Abilene, serving on you know, Abilene City Council, but I can't imagine another city um going through as much as we did through one very tight period and then having a new city manager. I mean, from obviously everyone knows the the largest data center in the nation, you know, was uh up and running or starting up at that time. We'd just gone through a cyber attack. We were doing all these other projects from AYSA to the two uh rec centers, you know, m millions and millions of dollars. Yes. The Bass Pro Shop, all these massive um physical projects, including the data center, including the cyber attack, and to be brought in and going, all right, here you are, day one, you're right in the middle of it. It wasn't just a crest of like great things happening and just continue on. It's no, you got to figure out everything as you go and don't drown. Good luck.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_05That's intense.
SPEAKER_00That was you know, that pretty much explains it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, that was intense. Well done. Well done. All right. Um, so let's get into some of the um the issues. So, first off, what uh you know, speaking of the data center and and all these big kind of projects, uh Great Lakes Cheese, uh the the Dias Air Force Base, what is the expected growth for Abline over the next 10 years, do you think?
SPEAKER_01So the DCOA has actually done a study on this and they have it released in their annual report for 2026. And the estimates that that they are looking at by their relationships and knowledge of the uh the business and industry community is between about a 9 and 18 percent increase in population for the Abilene MSA. And so, of course, that is uh Taylor Jones in Callahan County. So that's not just specifically the city limits of Abilene. So that looks like about a 17,000 to 37,000 population increase in in the next 10 years, which sounds like a lot when you say 37,000 people. Uh, but again, remember that's going to be a high end of that spec of that uh projection, and it is over a three-county area, most of which we should expect to be more close to or in the city limits of Abilene. However, when you look at a 10-year span and you say even if it's on the low end of the 9% growth estimate, that's roughly 1% a year. Now, what we may see is a ramp up of uh, you know, 3 or 4% a year and then to level out. But as a whole, Abilene has not grown more than about 1.5% a year over its past, you know, 10 years. So even at a 3.5% growth in a rate, which is about what we're at now, it feels crazy. But that's because our trajectory has typically been so incremental that we haven't really noticed it.
SPEAKER_05So right now we're going at, you know, if we're looking at a typically a one to a 1.5% increase, and now we're at a what a would you just say a three year and a half? So almost three times the normal rate within a year, it sounds like it's a bit front-loaded that curve. And so we're going through a year or two or three of front loading the the high growth, and then it'll level off, or at least that's a projection. Um so uh roughly um anywhere between what does that work out to be 1700 and 3,700 people a year additional to Abilene?
SPEAKER_01Yes, that would be that the annual increase.
SPEAKER_05Um that's a lot of um housing that's needed. Um a lot of that growth has come from um data centers from outside the city, so outside city control. And this is something that I've tried to kind of um maybe not push back but educate in that back when uh Lancium, the data center here in in town, was um just starting their project 22, 2023, um, there were no data centers in West Texas. This was all, you know, brand new. There was none of this, oh, data centers popping up. This was really the first one in all of West Texas. And it was between do they build outside city limits or inside city limits? And if they build inside city limits, then we get additional tax revenue and and some control. If they build outside the city uh city limits, literally just a few hundred yards across the street, they would be outside the the city control and city jurisdiction and tax, um, no tax revenue. And so that's why we wanted them in the city limits. And we see the consequences of those that are outside the city limits in the one in Shacoford, just across the county line, uh, and then the ones up in Haskell, that we're still seeing the effects of it, um, but we really don't have any control. We don't even know when they're coming in because we're not in those those discussions.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_05So, how do you as a city manager deal with those waves of um people coming in, the temporary workers? You know, each one's looking at around what, five to seven thousand workers, depending on the size, five to seven thousand temporary workers for each data center. So if you've got two, you know, the Lanceum and the Shuckleford one, there's 14,000, 15,000 workers just from those two data centers. That's a massive influx of people for a population of 130,000. How do you as a city manager try to cope with that and and plan for that? And is it, is it in the the discussions with um do you kind of force yourself into those discussions with the other data centers, or you just kind of go, hey, we'll see what plays out in the public information space and hopefully we we adapt?
SPEAKER_01So we have been as proactive as we can be, and uh in fact have been able to build some some good relationships with Vantage, which is the developer of the data center in Shacklet County. And uh the mayor and I uh toured their site probably about a month ago. And housing, of course, is one of our bigger conversations. And so they have been open to discussing housing with the city. They understand the impact that it also has on them. You know, if they don't have a workforce and a place for them to live, then that slows down their construction. So clearly, we've had great and frequent communication with Lancy M and Crusoe and Oracle, OpenAI regarding the Stargate campus. And in fact, we are meeting about quarterly with all of those entities, with the chamber, the DCOA, the mayor, and I. So that is something that that we started a few months ago to really try to have these community conversations with everyone around the table. And so, yes, we are talking housing. And because of those conversations that we're able to have directly with the the specifically the uh the Stargate and the Vantage data centers, they are coming up with more housing solutions on their own. They are bringing in housing developers and investors to also try to source and create new inventory. So they are not looking to us as to the sole solution of all their problems. They understand they have brought the workforce and they have been working uh with us. Now, the challenge about housing is unless you're doing something that is RVs or these modular homes, and even that is taking time when you put in the utility and the infrastructure. So, so the timing, we have a lot in the pipeline of um new residential development, whether that's multifamily, single family, but as you know, it we can't just throw. Throw those up in three months. And so what we're having is this constraint of influx, of workforce, shortage of housing, and we are truly at kind of this critical point. I would definitely say that this is critical mass, but we do have inventory in the pipeline. In fact, just in um one in the May um city council approvals for zoning, we had over a thousand units through the zoning process, with and 800 of those were uh multifamily units. So they're coming. It just is that we don't have that supply uh on the ground yet. And from what I understand, you know, the the the the the historic of of what is now Stargate was just only two buildings. It wasn't intended to be this hyperscale project, nor was there going to be one a stone's throwaway. I understand the cons this concerns and the comments of why wasn't the city more prepared? Why didn't we work on this sooner? My perspective is it changed and happened so quickly that that we were not able to uh to do that. But one of the things that has helped is having these numbers of the workforce that we have, having these projections of population with the housing um survey that was done by the Chamber of Commerce on the housing demand. We've been showing those to the real estate community, to the banking community, to the building community, and they are they're responding and and they are they are ready to help and they're ready to to see Abilene continue to provide the housing that we need, not just for temporary, really for our long-term residents.
SPEAKER_05Where there's demand, typically the the private sector will eventually supply.
SPEAKER_01It's so true. And to walk up to a builder and say, hey, will you put 500 houses on the ground? We think we can fill them in two years. That's not a good business proposition.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Well, and I think the city has taken some steps. You know, Rebuild Abbey, we we implemented really before this growth was known to uh incentivize builders to build in the interior part of Abilene and kind of renovate it. Um, but it has been a nice benefit now that the housing needs have have skyrocketed. And I think also um I I I don't want to miss misattribute. I think it was Matthew Dane of the Water Department in the strategic meeting suggested the um map of all the properties in Abilene and which ones were uh ready to be developed, utility connections uh ready to go, and which were you could still buy, but they would take more time and money to get ready. And so this was a a step by the city to go, let's make it a little easier and do what we can to help the developers out there bring more housing supply online. What do you tell people, um, especially renters, where their rents doubling or tripling in some cases? What's your kind of timeline on rent is tight, rent is increasing now. How long do you think that will be until the supply side comes up and matches demand and then rental prices go down? What's kind of just your personal what you tell people out there?
SPEAKER_01I I my perception is about 18 months.
SPEAKER_05Okay.
SPEAKER_01And I know that sounds like a long time, and you are right. I I am well aware of rental prices, and uh my son has some young adult friends that are renting an apartment, and it's really wild what it what they are having to spend. But I think the key is what you said is supply and demand. And the other thing that I think that is important for residents to understand is that the city has no authority to regulate private uh rental market, nor hotels, which is a whole nother subject. Um, but I do think within about 18 months, we will have some of these um uh multifamily projects up and going, uh, some more single-family homes that will be available, which are going to be more along the lines of uh uh entry-level um workforce affordable housing. The other thing is that within 18 months, um the the Stargate project will be almost complete in its construction. Um phase uh two, which is um buildings nine and ten, are expected to be finished by the end of 2027. So it's a combination. It's a combination of more inventory, but it's also a combination of seeing some of this temporary workforce decreasing.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Now I, you know, I'm all for this growth. Obviously, there's growing pains. I campaigned three almost four years ago on um, you know, bringing better jobs and and and growth here. So I'm I'm a fan of of all of this as long as we manage the challenges as we go through. But um the other kind of footfall as far as the housing issues is uh the Dias Air Force base expanding. Can you give people a sense of that, you know, as as Stargate Lanceum winds down or finishes up and those temporary workers uh uh shift out? The Das Air Force um construction is increasing. So is it is it going to really stay about the same, or are we expecting another big jump in housing demand when that ramps up?
SPEAKER_01So the numbers that I'm receiving is that the the Dais workforce as far as the construction is around 35 to 5,000. Um and so but what we're seeing with say the Stargate is around 9,000 now, and then we have Vantage, which again, those numbers are daily changing. Um but I do expect that one once we see the Stargate project complete, Vantage Project will still be going, but they don't have the same um temporary workforce numbers um as as as the Stargate project does currently, plus they also um have several of their own um housing solutions through RV parks and things like that. So I I I do believe what we're going to see is we're still in this peak of temporary workforce, and then it's going to subside some, but then, you know, like you said, Dias will pick back up, but we're still not slated to be at a peak demand of of of temporary workforce or temporary housing um once we reach past 2028.
SPEAKER_05Well, and something, you know, it's not a I wouldn't say a third or a fourth foot falling, but it's also contributing is uh the Haskell um data centers going up about 40 minutes north of Abilene. Uh they're building two, and I don't remember the size, but a lot of those workers, project managers, electricians, um, and and financial guys I've met, and they're all living in rentals in Abilene and then commuting up every day. And so that's another, you know, it's basically a third and a fourth data center that are contributing to us as well.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. And I love what you brought up at the beginning of the conversation, which was we didn't know that was gonna be we didn't know we were gonna be the hotbed.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And that the city of Abilene was gonna be supporting three or four data center construction projects all overlapping.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. So on um power, power is really a state issue. Um we don't we don't really have control over it. Um we do have some control, and this is what I always tell people is I like that um Lancy M Stargate is in city limits because we had the agreement with them and we were able to control um some of the things, you know, uh sound, uh air quality, stuff like that. Now, some of that's regulated by by the still the state of Texas, but um sound, um, what's the what's the maximum that um they can do sound wise out there?
SPEAKER_01So they must comply with the city's sound ordinance, which is at the property line, it's 70 decibels, um, which 70 decibels is about the same s uh volume as standing next to a washing machine while it's running or ri riding in a car on a highway. So it's that hum that you may not want to sleep next to, but again, that's the property line. Um so at the property line, it cannot be more than 70 decibels. They have done uh their their um sound studies and they are installing acoustic walls that will go around, say, the the gas turbines to help um accommodate for that. And it is part of our agreement with them that they must be in compliance with the sound ordinance or they will have to put in additional measures in order to become in compliance.
SPEAKER_05Uh off the top of your head, if you can if you can think of any, you know, a lot of the complaints or uh that I hear are people that are not informed saying, oh, well, you know, the data centers, wherever they are, they just come in and steamroll and they don't, you know, they don't abide by the laws and they don't, you know, uh they do what they want. Um that's not the case. You know, I can only speak for Abilene's deal, but that's you know, that was an agreement that we negotiated for a very long time, uh, phase one and phase two. Um are there any other points that you like to point out that are in the agreement that actually do uh protect Abilene residents? You say, no, we we do have can control and and on these points here.
SPEAKER_01Certainly. So of course, water is something that people um are still asking about. And in our site infrastructure agreement, we articulate, you know, the volumes of water. Now we're not capping, I want to be sure, we didn't say we would cap the water, um, but we did say that they were still subject to our drought contingency plan. And that is something I think is very important for people to know is that when and if we get into those seasons of drought where the residents and the businesses are all having to reduce their volumes of water, the data center has to as well. And so we're not giving them a pass. They aren't going to be um um getting exempted from this. Um, so I think that's an important piece that we we ensured to articulate in our agreement. We also articulated in the agreement, um, like you said, about the air quality standards being in compliance with federal and state regulation. We also uh required that they would repave Sandy and Sphinx roads that are now inside the city limits. Those were county roads, but when we annexed, so those portions that are now city, um, they are going to have to repave and bring up to um uh to standard as far as passable roads. So that's something that they will be doing. Granted, they're not gonna do that until they're done with the project. We don't want them to. Uh we uh once uh the project is complete, they will be required to rebuild those roads.
SPEAKER_05But potentially for those out there in that area to give them a timeline, potentially maybe beginning of 2028. If they're supposed to finish in 27, maybe 28. Okay, very good. Um phase one of the agreement was negotiated before, I believe you were you were city manager, um, and then you were involved with phase two expansion agreement once you were on. Uh what's the biggest clause that you're glad is in there now that we're we're in the the space that we're in now?
SPEAKER_01I think it is the the sound requirements, um, and there's multiple, I mean, everything in there I I think is is is um beneficial to the residents to know that we are um watching, we are going to be ensuring that local ordinances and state regulations are followed. Um, things like um they um must allow our emergency services to come out for training so that that ensures that if there is a fire or an incident that our personnel know how to uh access the campus and know where to go and not just for their property, but really for our people's safety and understanding of how to maneuver around the campus and those those hazards that they they may need to be aware of. So I think that's an important piece too that that average person may not think about.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Well, and and again, just to reiterate, going into my next question, just to lay the land, um, again, when we're negotiating this 22 and 23, there are no data centers out here. We don't know what it's gonna bring, if it's gonna be a boom, a bust, a nothing. It's all gonna be a, you know, I think initially there were gonna be a Bitcoin mining facility, and then they transitioned, and it was kind of like a very ethereal, very like, okay, maybe this will pan out, maybe it won't, maybe we'll get tax revenue, maybe we won't. And as we're we're going through this, we're really the the guinea pig in a lot of ways, especially on this scale, um nationally even, uh, what what we can require of the data center, what we want as far as tax abatements um and revenue and and all the the requirements. And it's been kind of cool to see, I don't know if they're still doing it, but for a while, other cities were meeting with our staff and going, hey, how did you guys do that? Um, because we want to kind of follow your you know guidelines or or what you guys did in your agreement so that we protect our own residents in other cities. And so that was kind of cool to see. One, it's scary to be the guinea pig, and I tell my clients, don't ever be the guinea pig, but I was really um proud of staff, both phase one and phase two, of um being the guinea pig, but doing it so well, uh coming out with an agreement that both, you know, was was good for industry, but also protected Abilene, I think was a nice was a nice mix. Um what do you so now in in 2026, what is if if you were city manager or three years ago when this was just starting, and knowing what you know now, what would you have advised or been a big point to city council then? What would you have either warned them about or kind of given them a heads up on hey, we need to either include this in the agreement or you need to prepare for this, this, and this? What would you have told council three years ago?
SPEAKER_01With the understanding that I have now.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_01Yes. I think one is um, you know, Virginia has been is it is more advanced in their data centers than Texas. And we are really learning a lot from those um those facilities and those communities and counties. So I think that would be one thing is hey, let's all load up and go look at one of these and um a larger facility and learn from their county and their cities and their industry partners. Something else I would say clearly is you know the housing component. We did not um that was not part of our our economic development incentive that they produce or provide a certain amount of temporary housing. I think that that would have been very important and um to help continue to protect the inventory in our city for our existing residents, students, those looking to come work in other locations. I think it it might be impossible to ask them to provide 100%. But I think if there was a certain volume that would be have been required, I think that that that is certainly a point that I believe that we um could have required. Um, another point I think is in regards to um the um the types of training and job availability that they would provide. Now, I think this is a great, this is this is not a a shortcoming because it's happening. But again, in part of these economic development agreements, ensuring that they are going to bring uh the training uh opportunities to your local community for them to work in the data centers, which is happening. Um, again, I want to brag on Oracle and Crusoe and OpenAI, they're already launching all of these kinds of academies and they want to hire locals. So that's again, I'm very proud of that. That that provides the opportunity that we want. But if if again, if you're wanting to make sure that you've got that good partnership, I would put it in an agreement in advance.
SPEAKER_05I think I saw on the news a couple of days ago that was it, Google was committing several thousand dollars toward or uh several million dollars towards TSTC towards that type of training.
SPEAKER_01Yes. I think it was good. Yes, I think so. You're right. There's so many stories that they can kind of all Yeah intermix in my in my brain. Um so that that's an important part. So yes, and the other is related, which is um a significant investment in the community. I know that is something actually that other cities um are starting to put in their economic development agreements um as a way to make sure that those partners are showing the respect and the honor of the local community that they're coming into. I also can say that that is starting to happen here in Abilene as well. And some of those conversations are still behind closed doors. Um, but to have that local investment, I think is very important. Um, they are going to generate a significant amount of tax dollars. Um, and that's that's something we can talk about here in a few minutes. Um, but but beyond that, it's important that that the community feels like that they are also, if they don't work there, but that they're also receiving a benefit that this massive project has come to their backyard.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Well, and I think um the the pendulum has swung a little bit again for that context. We were the first, we wanted them to come for the for the revenue and for the jobs that it brought. Now, three years later, you have so many data centers popping up and you see the discussions of oh uh moratoriums, or you see very aggressive um uh cities going, all right, you can come here, but you're not getting a tax abatement at all, or it's gonna be a you know a 50-50, or you're gonna be able to, as a city council, push for um you're gonna have to do this certain amount of investment in the city, like you were saying, or this amount of investment into training. And so that's been an interesting shift to to see over the last three years of as communities go, do we want this or not? And if we do, if we allow you to come, you're gonna have to do XYZ. And so the bargaining power has definitely, I think, shifted a little bit. Now, ultimately, you know, you you see these some of these counties try to do moratoriums and then they get hit with a hundred billion dollar lawsuit, and you say you can't do that. But it but it has been interesting to see that uh that shift um in in that. But um so uh water, this is obviously I think maybe after housing or maybe right up there with housing, uh the water question. So to put it in perspective, how much water does the data center use? And you can break it down on a daily basis, annual basis, but in a context that like a uh uh whenever they start to talk an acre feet, they lose me 100% and I go, I don't understand any of that. So uh breaking it down in kind of easily understood terms, how much is this using and and you know, in context of like, does it break into the top 20, top five users in the in the city?
SPEAKER_01So we uh I did request for some updated numbers because I knew we were gonna get to have this conversation. And so the total number of gallons used in 2025 for the uh the data center, the Stargate data center, is about a million gallons a month. So that is um in comparison, some of our larger, one of our larger industrial water users is about nine million gallons a month. So so just looking at total for industrial use, one million gallons a month versus nine million gallons a month. That was 2025. 2026, they have increased, of course, because they're they've got more buildings under construction and they're starting to fill more of their um their um their cooling systems. So at this point, 2026, they're averaging about three million gallons a month, and a major industrial user over this same time period is at about 10 million. So you can see there it's you know between nine and ten million gallons a month for a major uh industrial user and this and the campus is you know one and three. So what it what we are waiting to see is the stabilized post-construction numbers. So remember, these are these are when they're filling their cooling systems. Sometimes they flush them a time or two. But what's once that the campus is completed, as far as its construction is concerned, their per building volume of water will be about a hundred thousand gallons a year, which is about the same as an average household use.
SPEAKER_05It's pretty impressive.
SPEAKER_01So you've got 10 buildings equal to the average household use of about 10 uh single family homes.
SPEAKER_05And then every now and then they'll need to recharge mainly.
SPEAKER_01Probably, you know, what they're saying is three to five years is when they may need to do the the recharge. It's a million gallons for the cooling system for one building. Um, and so the likelihood that they are going to fill all ten at the same time would be at the most 10 million gallons. And the total daily water use in Abilene is about 25 million. So even if they flushed all of their cooling systems at the same time and refilled them all at the same time, which they won't because that would shut down their operations, they would be using half of the water use for one day.
SPEAKER_05So um the nine million, I think you said three million uh per month, and then a regular industrial user was around nine, ten million a month. Uh a regular industrial user would be like the hospital, university, a a soda distributor, those out there, those are using nine to ten million gallons of gallons of water a month, and the data center's only going to be using three million gallons a month.
SPEAKER_01That's what they're using now.
SPEAKER_05Okay.
SPEAKER_01And and again, that's because they're in the construction phase. So once they're out of the construc construction phase, it's it's A hundred thousand gallons a year. So that's like less than ten thousand gallons a month.
SPEAKER_05Right. So even worst case scenario, which is kind of what we're in right now, they're using three million. And then once they're completed, it drops down to a hundred thousand gallons a month is the projection.
SPEAKER_01A year.
SPEAKER_05A year. A year. Yes. So that's um and that's mainly due to the closed loop system, which I think uh people have heard about, but that makes the the difference between the uh really, I think most of them in West Texas are doing this, but certainly this one, um, which was in our discussions whenever they were coming forward. Um, but you see in the news, oh, in Louisiana or Georgia, these data centers that are sucking in mil, you know, 20, 40 million gallons of water, you know, and it's and it's causing massive problems. We're not uh having those issues because one, we're we had them on a closed loop system. It's more expensive for them to do. Correct. We don't I don't care uh for that, but I'm glad that they, you know, that we that we have them on a closed loop system. Um and so people talk about oh, the water issues in other in some of these other states, but for us, at least as far as the Lancium one, the one that we had control over, their closed loop system, and they're gonna be a hundred thousand gallons a year, which is what'd you say, 10 10 houses a year? Correct. Yeah. So that's um that's pretty impressive. And I think I think we had these in-depth discussions uh on council over over the three years of negotiation. Um, and I think that was something that was obviously very important to council. Uh, and so I think that alleviated really a lot of our concerns as far as this project. I think where, and I will take partly to blame for this, is is I think where we could have done a better job is to hit over and over again how good of a system this will be and how this is not a concern water-wise moving forward. And I think that I think hopefully, you know, through the through podcasts like this and just uh over time, hopefully people will it'll seep in uh the knowledge out there slowly of hey, this is a different system than whatever they're working with in Georgia or Louisiana. These are the actual numbers you can feed into the fear, or you can look at the actual numbers and go, yeah, it's gonna be 10 residential houses per year. Great. I mean, that's that's amazing. Um, so that that I think is where you didn't have the any kind of panic on the council side. But I think the flip side of that was we didn't feel the need, the drive, the like, oh we've got to get out there ahead of this and explain it, which I think I could have done a better job. I think council as a whole could have done a better job because that that is our job as council members to get out there and and address the concern. So I would encourage any current city council members listening to this is to you know use your platforms to get the word out about how um a good um an effective water system that we have with with this data center. Um so um what are your thoughts then segueing to Cedar Ridge Reservoir? Obviously, that um you know we have the one data center in City Limits, but as we've been talking, we've got three, four other data centers. Sweetwater, you know, has approved one recently and that's about 40 minutes away as well. So we're looking at five data centers of of varying sizes, all within about 40 minutes of Abilene. Um we can't control the other data centers, what closed loop system they're on, or how much water they use, et cetera. Those are left up to the county commissioners and the state of Texas. So we still have to address our water issues. So where does that leave Abilene when it comes to long-term water growth planning and Cedar Ridge Reservoir in particular?
SPEAKER_01So the City Council, as you uh as you know, has been looking at alternative water sources for decades, um, 25 years. And there are two different pathways that we are working on concurrently, which is the Cedar Ridge Reservoir, which there has not been a reservoir permitted in the state of Texas in a long time. Yeah. I don't have 40 years? I was gonna say it's it's decades. I don't have that exact number, so I'm not gonna say it. Um and it takes probably about 20 years um to get through that process. However, we are in that process. Um, in fact, we we do have an um an executive session discussion um with the council regarding um some of our legal um conversations um about that uh this week. That is uh a monumental project. It would um provide another alternative water source. And it wouldn't be just for the city of Abilene, because clearly a project of that magnitude, we would have to have multiple partners. Number one, to be able to afford it and two to be able to um share those resources. The other avenue is uh groundwater in the Fort Stockton area that the City of Abilene is partnered with the city of San Angelo and Midland. It's called the West Texas Water Partnership. And we are looking at some um groundwater resources that we could bring this way uh and co-op that as well. So those are two different avenues that have been in the works for many, many years. But of course, anytime you're talking about groundwater, there's litigation.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So there's current litigation, um, no surprise, um, in that particular resource. So where we um, when you you ask about the urgency, I would say that the urgency isn't necessarily in the demand from the data centers because of knowing how much water they will actually use post-construction. It's more the general growth. And when you look at even another industrial water user, well, what if we get another food manufacturer or another um major employer that uh requires significant water use? Hotels. You know, you when you think about there's a lot of other business and commercial activity that requires some significant water beyond a data center. And then you have our general population growth as well. We want our universities to continue to be full and grow. And so all of these resources come into play. So the answer yes, is we can never stop looking for water resources. I think what we will be learning in the next probably five to 10 years is the true cost of those additional water resources. Um, because no matter what angle we look at, we're talking about tens of millions of dollars. I'm sorry, hundreds of millions of dollars.
SPEAKER_05I think the last I heard was 400 million on the Cedar Ridge Reservoir. And I went, okay, this was two years ago.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And and so, and and so those are those are definitely legacy uh generational decisions. And we have to have to remember we've got to continue to pursue them, but let's not panic. We still have the Possum Kingdom as a backup. As that that's that's 16 million gallons a day that we've not even begun to bring into our water system.
SPEAKER_05Um the other thing And how many do how many gallons a day do we use?
SPEAKER_01About 25.
SPEAKER_05So it almost doubles, not quite, but it almost doubles our capacity, right?
SPEAKER_01So from kind of this panic perspective, remember we we've got another source that, like you say, could bring in almost double of what we're currently normally using. Uh the um the concerns always about surface water is evaporation and rain. So even if we go build another reservoir, we are always still going to be subject to drought conditions.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So that's the other, I think, consideration that we're having to weigh if we're even allowed to build it, which of course we'll have to go through the permitting process with the state of Texas, and everyone downstream of us is going to protest.
SPEAKER_05I think there was some hope um a year and a half, two years ago, when uh the Trump administration um came back after Biden and they were, oh, maybe they'll be able to streamline the reservoir process and and move this forward. And um, I don't I don't know if that's uh changed anything at all. But um one last question on this. So obviously we've got the one in city, the data center in city that we can control, and and like we talked about, it's closed loop system, but there's four or five other data centers just within 40 minutes, and then we have all of West Texas, you know, data centers. Um one, to your knowledge, are most of those, if not all, closed loop system, or or you don't know?
SPEAKER_01To my knowledge, they are. Um specifically the Shackelford, which is which is Vantage, they are they are absolutely closed loop. Now, to also clarify, they're the only ones that are using Abilene sourced water, and I say that by sourced being they are actually a customer of Hambi. And Hambi is a customer of Abilene. So, um, so of those data centers, the Shackelford County and the the Stargate are the ones that are sourced by our our Abilene water resources. The state of Texas, as you know, is is getting more and more aggressive about water resources and statewide water planning. That may actually become something that comes into play that that is beneficial to to Abilene and our West Texas partners as well. If we're gonna go out and spend, you use the number, $400 million. Is that something then that our region partners with the a state, a statewide initiative, so that we're actually maybe getting more for our money than what otherwise we could do for ourselves? So I do think we're gonna start seeing some of those more regional collective partnerships and hopefully some state money uh to help us with that.
SPEAKER_05Well, and I've talked to uh our state senator Charles Perry about being on the show, and he's up for it, and that's gonna be one of the things we talk about is the the water, but also his plan to um pipe a lot of water to West Texas. And so we'll we'll look into the the financials and the the physical aspects of it as well. But it's definitely something that um with the data centers, but also just the growth in West Texas, whether it's Lubbock, Abilene, San Angelo, it's something that we have to always factor in. I'm you know, I would I would say people said water was king before, and now it's kind of the god emperor of everything.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_05Um so once this uh data center here in town finishes, which I think you said was end of 2027 projected.
SPEAKER_01Yes, or early 28, yes.
SPEAKER_05Um what is the projected long-term employments uh of how many they will employ here in the city? So we hear the big numbers of oh, five, seven thousand temporary workers to build it, that's increasing our sales tax revenue, all that kind of good stuff. But once that's all finished, people are like, oh, there's gonna be 10 people out there and that's that, and and it'll just be this hulking giant empty that that doesn't provide any jobs. Realistically, there's the there's the agreement of minimum amount of employees. Correct. Um but then realistically, that's just the minimum. What are what are they projected to employ? Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01The numbers we have heard most recently is about fourteen hundred full-time employees.
SPEAKER_05Okay.
SPEAKER_01And so that is a that's a significant employer for us. And and many of those jobs are going to be highly skilled jobs as far as electricians uh and in your technical um type positions, uh that think about the amount of computer equipment and cabling, uh, you know, that's that is going to be some highly technical jobs. However, like I mentioned before, um we know that they're already doing um some training and doing job fairs in our community to to equip our um our residents. In fact, one of the meetings that we had with our our partners, status center partners, we were asking about credentials and they were saying we can take a high school graduate and we can um put them through our academy and they can be eligible to come work for us. So, yes, there will be some highly specific, um, probably more academic um uh requirements for some of the positions, but a lot of the positions um can be available to our own community, which therefore drives our economic engine and provides opportunities, which is what we want for our residents.
SPEAKER_05Speaking of the sales tax revenue, so those numbers have been um really good. Um what um what is that number? Uh how much additional sales tax has the city uh brought in this year?
SPEAKER_01By the end of fiscal year 26, which is going to be September of this year, we anticipate about 21 million of surplus. We're calling it surplus sales tax because, as you recall, we did not budget for the total volume of sales tax we would be receiving because we knew we couldn't count on it for the coming years. So we are looking at about 21 million.
SPEAKER_05And uh sometimes people get lost in in the all the tax nuances, let's say, but it's important to keep in mind that there's kind of two potential revenue streams and they'll fluctuate to varying degrees, but you have the property tax, um, which is the the real estate out there, that was the uh abatement. Correct. And then the sales tax, which is a separate revenue stream, um comes in, and obviously that's gonna fluctuate depending on construction to to uh a much larger degree, I would I would assume. Uh so on the um on the property taxes first, that revenue stream, what is that projected to bring in for the city of Abilene on an annual basis once it's finished? Do we have a number ballpark?
SPEAKER_01We're working on that. Um so part of that is because it isn't completely built out, and so at this point, we're all that they're basically just um guesses and projections.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01However, what we do have is we have their taxable valuation um as of January 1 of 2026, which will be used for the tax um values for um next fiscal year. That value is is is significant. Um, it's about a 30% increase to our total tax rolls. I want to just keep uh reminding you though, and others that that again we're we're considering one time because back to this complicated uh property tax situation. New values are not part of the three and a half percent tax cap of new revenue. So we're able to see those total new values come into our tax revenues for this coming fiscal year. After that, they will be subject to the 3.5% tax cap. And that is also when we expect our abatements to begin and go into effect. So the councils also ask us to look at the property tax revenues from the data center in a bifurcated way, like the sales tax, which is what is going to be considered non-reoccurring versus reoccurring. At this point, um, the non-reoccurring we expect to be about 20, 25 million. Um, and so we are going to be identifying those as non-reoccurring funds. Uh, I know that we talk about it in the council as one time.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. It could be a two-time. Could get another good year.
SPEAKER_01You could, and it all it's all dependent on there's so many variables. This calculation has been a challenge. It's a big puzzle because the other part about the valuations is a significant, the the most um valuable part of the real of the um ad valorum taxes is the value of the personal equipment. So the PPE. Um no, that's personal protective equipment. Sorry. Wrong business personality. BPP. Yes, the BPP. Sorry, I have my acronyms wrong. The BPP. That is significant because of all the new equipment in inventory. That has a very quick depreciation life. And so after three years or so, it will be replaced. It's not, it is not um accounted for at full value when you replace equipment like you would have additional value if you added, say, an expansion or another building. So BPP is is going to be a big part of this equation that until we see those um those cycles of replacement, we're not sure how much to count on. So I know you asked for a short answer, but I did not give that to you. I think what we're looking at is probably about 50 million of 5.0 or 5.0 for combining um sales tax and property tax that we are saying it's going to be basically the the ship that came in, the the proverbial ship that came in, but it is not here to stay.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_01And so at that point, we do expect about a 4 million annual increase to what we will uh be receiving through property taxes after this construction period is over, once everything is built out, once there's no more construction sales tax, we're estimating about $4 million a year to the city uh from the property taxes.
SPEAKER_05So it's a big bump at the beginning. Uh uh sales tax and um new value uh property tax coming in in the first year or two, let's say, you're saying will be around fifty million? Over the next two years. Over the next two years, right. And then after that, annually the city will be getting about four million for the next eight, eight, nine years until the abatements end, and then it's and then and what happens at the end of 10 years total abatements?
SPEAKER_01After that, we do have a second 10-year abatement, but the only um values that would be abated is new value. So if they have expanded the campus even even further or added other buildings, um abatements are only applicable to new value. So that abatement would um be much at this time I would expect it to be much less impactful unless they go in and build a lot of other new um um structures.
SPEAKER_05Well, and I think that helps um people, one, visualize that okay, for the next two years, sales tax, property tax will get maybe 50 million, and then it levels off at 4 million. It illustrates also two things. One, uh uh data centers aren't getting a free ride. We're getting a massive amount of economic activity, but also revenue that we can plug back into the city for whatever needs we have. Um, but also two that um long term over the next eight, ten years, there's there's steady growth. But also it highlights the challenge that that you guys on sta city staff have to plan of how do you go from uh you know no revenue to oh it's being constructed 50 million and then not use that, not count on that for the next 10, 20 years, you get a nice boom, and then you're back down to four million, which is still a nice bump, but it's nowhere near the four uh the fifty million. And so financially planning your five, ten year plan over that is is difficult. Um but you also have the additional um uh economic activity people are being employed. Um, you know, there'll still be a I would say a bump in in sales tax. And one people, uh one thing that people forget, and this was before you you got here, 20 early 2024, uh our sales tax were cratering. We had to do a hiring freeze, we had that's why we combined the the construction of both rec centers to save a million dollars. We were in dire straits, and it wasn't just us, it was across the state, but uh our economy, our sales tax was was drastically going down. And with this data center coming in online construction-wise later that year, 2025, that has been a huge shot in the arm. And so people forget, and they may not have been aware of it, but our economy locally and statewide was was dipping hard, and we were having to do some real tough decisions. And so for for us to be in a position now, I just remind people, I would much prefer to have these pains and challenges than where we were two years ago when uh our economy was was dropping and people were you know, we were doing a hiring freeze and it was it was looking grim. And so uh it I'd I'd much prefer to have these these problems. Now with the additional revenue, so let's say uh what was it, 21 million from sales tax this year, um, kind of that one time, one time bump. Maybe it'll maybe you'll get another bump next year, but you're counting on just one. What are you recommending to council that they spend it on? And you guys just had a budget disc uh budget discussion a few weeks back. Um what's kind of the thinking of how to how to spend that 21?
SPEAKER_01So we're looking at those what we're calling one-time revenues through the lens of the council's priorities, which you were able to be a part of that. Um the five priorities are infrastructure, sustainable growth, community engagement, housing, and operational excellence. And so there's a lot of capital when we look at that, um, just infrastructure. The the sustainable growth um priority was in regards to continuing to expand and create our um our park spaces, um, our community facilities to be um updated and can be able to grow with our community. So if in case um their listeners don't really identify what sustainable growth is, it's our ability to continue to maintain what we have and increase that. So those are what we're considering buckets, if you will, of priorities for the council, which reflect the priorities of our citizens.
SPEAKER_05And by buckets, you mean you have a certain number of buckets that you can so throw only a certain amount of money in.
SPEAKER_01Precisely. And um and some of those buckets need more filling than others. And that's kind of the imagery that that uh that we Brought to the council in our budget workshop. So we already are creating, we have a list that we're adding to probably daily. It's up to about $245 million. So we will not have any uh shortage of opportunities or projects. Christmas list. So $50 million sounds like a lot of money, but we're really wanting to focus on, and based on again, council's direction about deferred maintenance and infrastructure. We want to make sure that we're using this opportunity to look at what needs restoration. For example, so many of our park spaces, our restrooms, our concession stands, our ball field fencing, 40, 50 years old, things that of that nature, they they need repair. They need full cell replacement. Those are hard to do in a normal budget cycle. And so having these funds that to look at what are in our existing assets and our inventory that our community uses on a regular basis that just is worn out. Walking trail at Rose. I know that you Rose Park, you you've heard about that from the council chambers. When you start adding up some of these things, you know, that's a $1.5 million walking trail. So that is a way that we can we're taking inventory of our existing assets, buildings, uh, roofs, HVACs. Those are not near as exciting, I realize, to the public, but we want to make sure that the public sees uh the the impact. Roads. We could spend every penny on roads. Um, and that would be incredible. We also want to make sure, though, that we are diversifying this investment in ways because it is an opportunity. It's an opportunity for us to be able to make these investments in the community in a way that there is not having to be a bond passed.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Yeah. I think it's, you know, you could look at it, well, we throw it into something and it sustains us, or you throw it into things that elevate us to a different level in whatever area, and that brings in new growth or new revenue that we're able to continue to kind of grow overall. Um, one thing, I think it came out uh a few days ago, and it was a bad headline, I forget who it was, one of the local ones about um uh city reduces the street budget or something like that.
SPEAKER_00Yes, it was a completely erroneous headline.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. What uh one, how how frustrated do you get with um let's say clickbait headlines? Uh and then two, what would you say to that of people are going, oh, I hear cities got a lot of good new revenue. Oh, uh they're reducing the city street budget. What where's the disconnect? What what would you say to that?
SPEAKER_01Oh, I would say uh yes, that it's exceptionally frustrating. Um we are constantly looking for ways to communicate more clearly and I and we do have some great ideas. I I think we're gonna start doing uh sessions like this uh produced by the city where we can have our our street department come in and talk about our roads and how we determine quality and and replacement schedules and uh because there is that desire for the public to understand.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01When there's a headline like that, um, and we there was another headline last week as well that said that our our water rates were gonna go up five to forty-four percent. And that that also was a a confusion uh between it's nice being on this side though.
SPEAKER_05I see that city council, they're the whores.
SPEAKER_01So so I think because what we do is complex uh and someone who may not live it every day, I can see where it can be easily confused. Um so so what I would say to that as far as the street maintenance and the budget, uh no, we we did not cut, we did not reduce. Um what happens, uh what happened this particular year is we have the Maple Street project, which has been going on for two years or three years already. And the inflation of that project and the amount of time that it's taking is is going to be more than what we had the bond funds to to pay for it. So we made a commitment to the residents and the citizens um to do Maple that entire stretch. And it's costing almost double than what we anticipated. And so we've got to finish funding that. And so that's why we're using the street maintenance dollars.
SPEAKER_05So it's not that the budget is being reduced, it's that more of that same budget is going towards one project more than it was initially projected.
SPEAKER_01Yes, it's that. It's um if it's it's Griffith Road, uh, which was part of the city's commitment to the Bass Probe um development, is that we would uh expand and rebuild that Griffith Road stretch. So the city has made commitments about some road work, and we are um we are including those streets in that budget. And so what that has done is in essence, then reduce the amount that would be spent on neighborhood streets. So we're gonna talk about that with the council and and see do we necessarily have to spend it that way, or do we use some of these one-time funds to do Griffith Road or some of these others so that we're still making progress uh in in our neighborhoods the way we want to?
SPEAKER_05We've had a lot of um big, we'll call them sexy projects over the last three, four years kind of come to fruition all kind of at the same time. Yes. Between AYSA, a lot of these are public-private partnerships where the the private sector donates 10 million and the city throws in money as well, and it and it makes this this massive, beautiful project. So uh, you know, we've got AYSA, the the two rec centers, we have the Cyprus Plaza, um I know I'm forgetting one or two. Oh, this uh the Cedar Creek Waterway, um, all these kind of things. They're visual, they're they're tangible, they're they're beneficial. People can go, oh, there's Abeline getting better. Yes. Um with our with this influx of of let's say 21 million, um it seems like the thinking now is shifting more to all right, we've we've got enough of the big tangible, I won't say flashy projects, but the headline producing ones. Now let's use it towards the the unsexy ones, the behind the scenes ones that oh it's it's the sewer lines, it's the water lines, it's the whatever that we'll never see until unless they break. Is that kind of the thinking? And if if so, what is what is one project you would you would tell residents out there, hey, you're never gonna see this. Uh it's not gonna be the AYSA building, it's not gonna be a new animal shelter, but this is a must-have that we've got to address. It's gonna soak up millions, but we've got to do it.
SPEAKER_01Because these are general fund dollars, which which you know are sales tax and property tax, I think we need to spend them towards those departments that are in the general fund, um, which is gonna be for instrument infrastructure, gonna be primarily that's gonna be our our streets. But I think what people don't realize is in in addition to roadways, we have culverts, we have bridges, we have street signs. We have um, we do have some underground storm uh storm drains. Those are the things that we don't really recognize um that is part of all the traffic um division. We also have um needs for traffic synchronization so that replacing our traffic systems, our signaling systems, so that we can have more flow of traffic more seamlessly so that they're synchronized. That's a pretty that is visible, but it's probably something people don't really notice. Hey, if we had a greater investment in our traffic systems, we could get through town even faster. And, you know, the the synchronization piece of being able to flow people through, which growing cities, i.e. Abilene, don't really know that they need these things until they start to grow. Yeah. And then suddenly you're like, how why am I stopped at three lights on my way to work?
SPEAKER_05Yeah. I would say that's probably the most, you know, other than housing, et cetera, and the water concerns, I would say most people complain about now or the last year or so, the traffic. Oh, it takes me six minutes to get home when it took me four minutes, you know, three years ago. Or, oh, now I have to wait in line at my favorite restaurant. Yeah. Like, hey, that's a good problem to have for that restaurant owner anyway. But um, that's I understand. So that's that's good. That is those subtle behind-the-scenes decisions that, hey, maybe this will alleviate traffic on your route home. Um, and so seeing the tangible benefits is one thing. So uh shifting gears a little bit, two or three more questions. Um on the I've addressed this issue on the news and and I know the the the council has as well many times, but I didn't want to let you go without addressing it. Um so there's an ongoing meet and confer unionization dispute between the city and the fire department. Um now this is you know kind of all pending, so you are um, you know, somewhat limited in what you can say. So I just want to let the listeners know that um some things can and can't be said. Um, but what would you like the listeners out there that are that are hearing this, seeing this in the news, what's kind of your word to them on this is this is where we are, this is where we're headed? Uh what what do you say about about that?
SPEAKER_01I think I would not use the word dispute really. I think what happened was a a threshold that the council and the city were willing to offer in in new pay raises over the next term of a contract versus what was desired by the association. And both basically had their line. And so, because of that, we were not able to come to agreement. We uh, as you know, the uh the firefighters association is putting together a petition and we'll be uh bringing that before the council soon for them to go to the voters for collective bargaining, which is chapter 174. It's a different form of negotiating than meet and confer. The more that um I have studied and learned about this, I do um believe that if the voters pass it, we can work with it. Um, because it still requires the city and the fire association to come together and have dialogue about pay and benefits. The the primary difference is that if we don't reach resolution like what happened in 2026, that there is further steps to require us to meet resolution. So it's not just left um at a stalemate, if you will. So I do think that um with more time and discussions we can come to agreement. That is my that's my hope.
SPEAKER_05Um so council and and on the on the fire, obviously I was on city council at that time, so I'm um I'm um very aware uh uh of that process, and I think um uh my hope is that it um it gets resolved well. Um but i it it does illustrate that um council and any in any council can get caught up in very uh reactive decisions, very um um ev really every government is kind of reacting to peer pressure. A problem rises to a certain level and then government has to react, whether it's federal, state, or or city. Uh it's a by nature it's a very reactive. It's very rare for a government to be proactive, and generally they get it wrong when they are proactive or we don't want it. So um you're constantly just reacting to problems and and and solving them. Um where do you see so it's kind of I think I use the analogy in my my going away speech off city council was it's kind of like walking through a forest and it's not just losing track of the forest, it's getting hit in the face with a branch at every step, and you still need to one see the problem, the the the trees, but you also need to see the bigger picture of the forest, and then the goal of wherever you're trying to get to, whether it's a part of the forest or or further past the forest, whatever that you know that imaginary goal is, uh, and it's hard because you're getting hit in the face with a branch, you know, every every second. So where do you see abling headed? Basically, in in 10 years, once we get through all the all the the rent uh prices uh increases and the all the traffic briefly got up, or you know, we see these challenges over the next two, three years, and we're we're seeing an increase in revenue, the good and the bad. We're navigating it all. We're we want to get through this all. It's all for the good to get to, it's not an end goal, but it's the next waypoint in 10 years. What do you see Abilene? What are we shooting for to get through these challenges? Why not stay the same? Why not stay how we were four years ago before all the data centers and before all this came here? What are we now shooting to be in 10 years? In your mind, as city manager of Abilene.
SPEAKER_01I can see it being incredible because what I am seeing and experiencing is people know Abilene, they've heard of Abilene, they don't quite know what to attach it to because we are a little more remote. Um, we are not in the hub of any other metro areas. So we're like, oh yeah, yeah, Abilene. And tell me again about Abilene. Um, and and I don't mean this region, you know, the the greater, the greater um United States and and and beyond. What Abilene now has is household name recognition.
SPEAKER_05It's true. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And when the data center is complete, and when we have 1400 or however many um high-tech jobs, and we have this ancillary ripple effect of professionals where housing, you know, there's going to be a multiple type of infrastructure of workforce support for this industry. We will be able to see Abilene continue to mature into a city that has a great diversity of workforce options, that has a renewed and refreshed housing inventory, that has updated parks and public facilities. And all of a sudden, people are going to say, What is going on in Abilene? I hear they've got great universities there. We've got a little bit of land, you can see the stars. And what we will see is people who enjoy our culture and our heritage of West Texas, our community-mindedness, our love for each other as neighbors and friends. People are hungry to live in a city that cares for each other. And that's Abilene.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So if they can come and move their families here and have a great educational experience for them and meaningful work in a community that's beautiful and has a great calf downtown festival and a library and uh name all these things, we're gonna grow because people are gonna love Abilene.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. I I agree. I think uh Ben in his episode he talked about living in San Diego with his family and they moved back to Abilene to raise a family. And so many of my friends have done the same. They they move back, okay, we want to raise our family in a in a good city. Um and it's nice that we have the amenities, but we also are just two hours away from Fort Worth. If you want to go to a bigger city, you can jump over there real fast. Um so on a personal note, for you, getting into government is basically you just wanting to solve problems, put out fires, right? It's not a glamorous job. It's not a uh off most of the time I would say it's probably a thankless job uh from the general public anyway, but it's putting out fires over and over again. It's not, you know, for for residents out there, if they have a problem, they go and it may take them one meeting, it may take them three months, it may take them a year to get whatever that problem is fixed, but eventually, hopefully it's fixed, and then they're done, right? They're gone. Uh local governments out of sight, out of mind, they they you know move on with their lives. Whereas for you and and staff and and counsel as well, but for you, it's fix that problem. There's 18 other problems today that I'm working on. I've fixed uh one of those, now I have 17, but three more added on. So there's never a point where in government at any level where you go, all the problems are solved, and I am good to go for the next year. We solved all the good, you know, all the bad problems, now it's only good. Now it's only fun. It's just problem after problem after problem. It's it's people coming to you um with complaints. It's kind of like working in the airline uh lost luggage department. I would say you're never dealing with people on a good day. They're always coming to you with complaints. Um how do you want, you know, first, how do you deal with that? And then two, how do you stay motivated to keep doing that over and over again? And and three, how do you just not come to dread talking to people? Because you know 90% of the time it's going to be a complaint. How do you how do you deal with that?
SPEAKER_01So that's a that's a very uh complex question. I'll start at the micro level. I like to remind myself that I'm having interactions with people, not transactions. You transact objects, you interact with people. And so whoever I'm interacting with, this is a unique experience for them. It's a personal they are personally affected in some form or fashion. It's important to them. And so it is my responsibility to show that person the value and respect that this is a problem to them and they're coming to us for help. So that's a reframing of my mind and perspective. And I literally have to tell myself sometimes when I read the email or I someone's on hold, I'm like, this is an interaction. There's a human on the other side of this that that I have the opportunity to help. The other is I've liked I like to also substitute the word um puzzle for problem because puzzles can be challenging and hard, but they also have solutions. And that's like you said, that's pretty much all we do is we put puzzles together. Um and sometimes we we don't we have to take a little bit of time to find all the missing pieces and fit them together. But that also helps me not dread. Um, because I like, I like I'm I'm the one at Christmas who wants to pull out the puzzle and sit at the card table, and no one else wants to do puzzles with me. So that helps as well because then the your your your attitude and your energy is just zapped before you even begin. Um, so that's that's also another little reframing thing that I do in my head. The bigger picture, kind of the elevated piece of this, is I I have to know that this is a calling that I have and that it is worth my investment. And so I do see it as a calling. It's city management is one of the most ancient professions when you really think about it. There have been city leaders, community leaders since the time that people began to assemble. I am part of this legacy of leadership who get to enhance people's lives and help them be safe and sound. And and and that is the that's the elevated perspective that I have to remind myself because it's not always fun. But when we look back and we see what we've been able to do in these big fun legacy projects, like you've mentioned, but we provide clean water for people to drink every day.
unknownThat's true.
SPEAKER_01We take away refuse and trash. And when you think about even these basic daily services, we are helping people live quality, healthy lives. And that is something we cannot forget because the the work of the city and the work of the public servant is an incredible ministry. People are able to not have to worry about so many things and they can focus on loving their kids and being healthy and getting an education because they don't have to worry about um what are they gonna do with their trash and how are they gonna get water and is somebody gonna get sick because we don't have sanitary sewer? Those are super basic things that most people probably don't think about every day, but that is part of my why. I I I get to I get to be a part of every single resident's life every day. And that's an honor.
SPEAKER_05That was a great answer. I'm uh that is a that's a great answer, and I'm gonna I'm not even gonna have a follow-up question because I think that's a great place to end on um a very uplifting and and kind of powerful uh calling. I have never looked at at city managers as hearkening back to ancient Greece or or you know Roman times, but you're right. I mean, they have um navigated and steered civilization for the you know thousands of years, um, taking care of all the problems behind the scenes. Um that was a great that was a great visual. Thank you for that. We'll end on that note. Emily, thank you for being on.
SPEAKER_01I enjoyed it, thank you.