American Audacity
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American Audacity
Tammy Fogle - Candidate for Abilene City Council
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Tammy Fogle, candidate for Abilene City Council, answering 20 Rapid Fire questions followed by in depth discussion on Data Centers, how to spend $20 million in sale tax revenue, how we zone and increase the supply of housing, and her ten year vision for Abilene.
This isn’t a polished campaign speech. It’s a transparent, hard look under the municipal hood at the sacrifices, budget realities, and hard choices coming down the pipeline over the next three years for the Abilene City Council.
Vote: Early voting starts Monday. Runoff Election Day is June 13th. Don't let others decide the budget for you.
Tammy, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_02Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to get down and get to sit down and have a conversation with you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we're gonna jump right into uh the 20 uh 20 question rapid fire. We're gonna do that. It's gonna take about two minutes, and then we're gonna jump into longer the longer questions. But um you have uh roughly 20 questions, three seconds to answer each. Uh we're not looking for a long political speech, just gut reaction, uh, one, two, three-word answer, uh, just your raw gut instinct. Ready?
SPEAKER_02Let's go.
SPEAKER_01All right. Number one, what is your what is the best Mexican restaurant in Abilene?
SPEAKER_02Uh Mexican food's not my favorite, but I would say Abuelos.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_01What was your first paying job?
SPEAKER_02Chick-fil-A.
SPEAKER_01How old were you then?
SPEAKER_0216.
SPEAKER_01What is Abilene's single greatest hidden gym?
SPEAKER_02Oh my goodness, that's a tough one. Um gosh. I would just say um the mill. I I don't know if it's hidden, but the mill is is is so is so perfect. It's a great environment.
SPEAKER_01Rank these in priority for you. Roads, water, public safety, housing.
SPEAKER_02Uh public safety, roads, and water.
SPEAKER_01Okay. No, no housing.
SPEAKER_02Oh well, housing would be fourth, I guess. Fourth, okay. I'm sorry. You I'm sorry. I didn't mean to leave that one out. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Best piece of advice you've ever received.
SPEAKER_02Don't take life too seriously.
SPEAKER_01What is your absolute number one priority if elected to the city council?
SPEAKER_02Managing transparency and fiscal yeah, number one. There we go. Transparency.
SPEAKER_01If you have to choose today, cut property taxes or increase the public safety budget, what should you do?
SPEAKER_02That's not a fair question. Um, you know, public safety comes first.
SPEAKER_01Rank these two for city growth. Attracting new businesses or supporting existing?
SPEAKER_02Supporting existing.
SPEAKER_01Cedar Ridge Reservoir, support or against?
SPEAKER_02Um four. Oh, yeah, four. Sorry, I was thinking of Cedar Creek Trail. Four, the reservoir for sure.
SPEAKER_01Books or movies for you?
SPEAKER_02Books, 100%.
SPEAKER_01What's your favorite book?
SPEAKER_02Oh goodness. Well, I have to start with the Bible. That's my first one that I love. Biogiographies, that's my genre.
SPEAKER_01Okay. What can the city do to help with the housing shortage in Abilene in one to two words?
SPEAKER_02Hire more staff.
SPEAKER_01Are Abilene Roads getting better or worse?
SPEAKER_02Worse.
SPEAKER_01What's the one thing that makes you more qualified than your opponent?
SPEAKER_02I've done the research, I've studied, and I I know how the city operates.
SPEAKER_01What's one complement of either your opponent or the city council? Your choice. You get to decide.
SPEAKER_02My opponent, he's a nice guy. I I I'm impressed with him the more I learn about him.
SPEAKER_01Is the city doing a better job right now with transparency? Yes or no?
SPEAKER_02Small yes. Okay. Slight increase.
SPEAKER_01What is one city service that currently deserves an A grade in your book?
SPEAKER_02Wow, that's a good question. Um three seconds. The the city service, I would just say the communications department is is stepping up in a way that I appreciate.
SPEAKER_01What's a city service that currently gets an F grade, in your opinion?
SPEAKER_02Um accessibility to citizens. Oh the service. Um that's these are hard to quick rapid questions. I'm sorry. You're asking me. Uh the the service that gets an F, um I that I'm sorry you stumped me. I don't know what city service gets an F because the staff I think are working under the leadership. And so, you know, I would just say uh making sure. I I'm sorry, I can't answer that question. That's a tough one. I I if I had a little I never even actually thought of that, so I apologize for not being able to answer it. So you want to move on or you want me to keep thinking about it.
SPEAKER_01Well, maybe putting it this way, what what service do you think needs the most improvement?
SPEAKER_02Um the service uh that needs the most improvement, I definitely would say the street department, but I don't think it's the the people that get an F. I think it's just the lack of staffing that gets an NF. Does that make sense? Is that what you're asking for?
SPEAKER_01Uh there's no no right or wrong answer.
SPEAKER_02So I don't like the people I don't think are getting out. I think the service because we don't have the staffing to maintain that right now is is probably where I'd give an F.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_01If you had been on the council in three uh three years ago, would you have voted for or against the Lancium data center at that time?
SPEAKER_02At that time, as a citizen, not knowing all the details, I would have voted against it.
SPEAKER_01When you don't understand something, where do you turn to first?
SPEAKER_02The public information. I turn to resources. I like to research, and then if I can't find it, I ask people questions who know more than I do.
SPEAKER_01Finish this sentence. In ten years, Abilene will be blank.
SPEAKER_02In ten years, Abilene will still be a great place for community and families to grow and thrive and support all levels of life, I think.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_00So very good. That's the end. That's the end of the rapid fire questions.
SPEAKER_02I'm trying to do the three answers, so my my con my my uh my answers probably didn't make as much sense as I would like for them to, but thanks for pushing me outside the box on that one for sure. That was fun.
SPEAKER_00Some of the some of the congressional candidates had some trouble with those as well.
SPEAKER_01So uh it was it's fun, and I think it gives people a little insight into the candidates.
SPEAKER_00So that's good.
SPEAKER_01Uh it it can be uncomfortable for you, but hopefully for the listeners, it gives them an insight. So, all right. Well, now that we've got that out of the way, um let's jump into some of the deeper, deeper issues where you can kind of where we can kind of get into a little bit more. Um, and and we'll just kind of jump right in. So I think the the big discussion right now, based on the budget uh budget meeting recently for the city council, is uh we have roughly 20 million uh in sales tax, excess revenue, let's call it, to work with. Uh what's your specific vision in how we should um use that money and ensure it's not just uh swallowed up with um administrative overhead, let's call it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's a great question. You know, I've been trying to piece this puzzle together for the last several years just so I could understand as a citizen to be able to educate others. And so this last budget retreat gave me another large piece. I thought it was really interesting to see all the capital improvement projects that needed to be done, you know, that specifically comes out of the general fund budget, whereas then we have separate other issues like the sewer and water capital improvement project funds. And so, not to get in the weeds on that, but it seems like the list keeps growing of what we need to do. And so until I feel like we have an accurate list of all that needs to be done, we can't really prioritize because you know, if something big comes up, so prioritizing that list that they've presented to us is I think a really big deal to know what things we can spend on short term. Um, because 20 million sounds like a lot. I mean, it would be a I wouldn't know what to do with it. But in the city, when you're talking $300 million of projects that need to be fixed, it's not much. And so it can be a little um daunting to try and prioritize those things, but I think by getting those in order, it helps give us even a better plan moving forward to take advantage of some of this increased revenue that's coming as those sales, I think mainly through the sales tax that this increased revenue that's coming in from this project that's happening in our city. I know they projected 20 million, but I like that they try to be conservative, so maybe there might be some more, but I think we just got to start working with that first, and then where the other ones won't be covered by those one-time expenses to see how we can include that as in maintenance, some maintenance projected cost or things like that in the budget to keep the list getting smaller than going.
SPEAKER_01So for a listener out there who has maybe just seen in the news, oh, City has an additional 20 million, right? What would you say as far as a a takeaway for them of hey, this is what Tammy Fogle would like to spend five million or ten million on? Is it I would like to see it go towards uh 10 million towards maintenance or 10 million to the roads? Or or what what is something that the listener can go, okay, yeah, I agree with that, and that's that would be a good investment.
SPEAKER_02Well, I think um you know the the roads to me are something that would be a beneficial thing to start investing more money in. Um and that wasn't necessarily something included in that list of projects because it's something a little different, probably. But so roads are a big, a big need. Um, and of course, you know, starting to tackle that fireman pension fund um to me is a big need because it's been unstable and unfunded for quite a while in a place that the the city won't get into trouble if the state changes the law. So streets are a big, big priority, I think. I don't think we can spend all that money on there because you know, in the street of my maintenance advisory board one time they said, you know, we don't, it's not for lack of contract uh work that workers to have it, we just need more funding. So I think there's a balance too in using too much of that money to cover the streets because then it's a lot of inconveniences and it messes with traffic flow and stuff like that. So um I think that's one of the priorities of making sure we get some more money tackling some of those um linear streets that are downgrading every year and not being fixed. So that would probably be a specific first item I would address.
SPEAKER_01Uh you've uh spoken at city council meetings over the you know prior years about um uh tax cuts, um property tax cuts in particular. Now that 20 million that's for sales tax revenue uh bump, but in general uh you've been pushing for uh property tax cuts uh on the city's part, but you've also spoken about uh you know additional funding for the fire, funding the uh uh pension, um, which is anywhere between 10 and 70 million. Um you're talking about uh additional street funding. Um how do you approach that dual goal of wanting to cut taxes but also fund uh funding additional towards the streets or to the fire or to the pension?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think that is a great question. Part of the problem is as a citizen, I don't have access to some of the more specific items in the budget. And you know, as a council person, that may not be something I have access to, but I do think we've got to start addressing the actual budget and where we're spending money and if it's a must, because I haven't heard a lot in the past few years of that being cleaned up so that we're not just spending, you know, the same amount every year. Um and so I think we have to start there first because I believe that all this revenue that is coming in, even though it's only 15% of what's coming in from that data center, there's going to be more, well, not as much revenue this year because it hasn't officially opened until next year. But we've got to look at the budget first, I guess is my bottom line, because I do think as every year the taxes have stayed at the same similar number rate, but they've been increasing the amount of revenue it's bringing in. And so I think there needs to be some questions addressed about addressing that revenue first before we just blindly go in and raise the tax or keep it even the same. That's what was mentioned at the council retreat was to keep it the same, or the pre-budget workshop. It was mentioned to keep it the same, but even keeping it the same increases revenue, which means our taxes go up. And with all the state level work that's been done to reduce the burden for property taxes, it's actually up to the local level to actually follow through with that. And so I think that we have to look at the budget first and see what is happening there before we can start saying, do we need more revenue without accounting for how we're spending the revenue we're already getting.
SPEAKER_01So is part of your uh potential toolbox with this $20 million in sales tax using some of that money to in effect buy down the property tax?
SPEAKER_02Well, that's not what it is, because see what happens is uh SB2 was passed several years ago, and it actually limited the increase, increasing the tax rate up a 3% without 3.5% without voter voter approval. And actually, you're one of the ones that helped me really start down this path of craziness to understand all these details. Last last year it was it was very helpful, and I was very appreciative of that. Um, and so what we're looking at is every year I was thinking the tax rate had stayed the same based on the budget book. And then when I realized SB2 came into law, it introduces what's called a no-new revenue rate. And so last year our taxes still went up about two cents, I think is what it is.
SPEAKER_01And so even though we lowered decreased last year, the tax rate.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm sorry if I said that wrong. It lowered we lowered the number two cents, and so that lowered the the revenue, but we still were paying more for, or I guess we lowered it one cent is what you what happened, and then we're still paying more money. So we had it at 75 uh 0.756, and it went um the no new revenue rate was like 0.725. So if we had kept that at 7325, the rates wouldn't have gone up. So we still increased our taxes that we paid. We just didn't um with the number was it's a little misleading to be honest. And so when I think presenting information to the the public, we need to use the no new revenue, I can never say that word, no new revenue rate comparison so that we're talking apples to apples because the tax rate number and the no new revenue, no new revenue rate, they're different numbers and it can be confusing. And so what I thought you did last year was I was like, oh look, he lowered the rate, but actually you just lowered the number, not the rate. We still paid higher taxes, and so no, that would be incorrect.
SPEAKER_01The the tax rate was lowered.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01The revenue still is is uh based on the valuation, so you apply that rate to the valuation of the homes, then you get the revenue. So you can lower the rate but still make more revenue.
SPEAKER_02Right. That's what I'm saying. Uh and if I didn't speak it that clearly, that's what I mean. The revenue, the rate can change, but the revenue still increases. So that that means we're paying more taxes when we're paying more revenue.
SPEAKER_01So we lowered the tax rate last year, but the revenue increased because the valuations of the houses increased.
SPEAKER_02Well, right.
SPEAKER_01So you're applying that tax rate to the evaluation.
SPEAKER_02The no new revenue rate uh is the comparison that makes that more um black and white.
SPEAKER_01And so it's it can be. I think some people use that for their argument or against my where I would like to hit your thoughts on. So you're a proponent of going to the no new revenue rate.
SPEAKER_02No, I'm a proponent of being open about it. And so when we say we're gonna keep like it was used that we're using a flat tax, uh the keeping that a flat rate of 7506. Um but again, until we know those appraisals, which I kudos to the organization of scheduling that after those appraisal values come in and we know exactly what we're dealing with, um, that helps us to understand better what's moving forward. So, say the the the appraisal values come in and all that information is on July 25th when that comes in, and we see that, oh, actually the no new revenue, no new revenue rate is 0.7506, then we'll understand that that is not that is it why it is what it is, and so understanding the two numbers are important because they're two different, they're two different conversations to say the tax rate and the no new revenue rate are different, they're different numbers. And and I think it was created to help the public to understand what we're actually talking about because it can be confusing. And that's really what my goal is is to make sure that people understand what's going on and they they can see that our tax rate has been increasing every year because based on the no new revenue revenue.
SPEAKER_01And I just want to make clear that is incorrect. The tax rate has not been increasing, it has decreased. The revenue from it has increased. Key distinction there.
SPEAKER_02Let me make the key distinction then. People are paying more taxes every year because the revenue- That's the tax revenue. That's the revenue. And so I think it's splitting hairs, to be honest, to say that they're not paying more tax, that the tax rate is not increasing when people are paying more taxes. And those are kind of the discussions I want to make sure that we're not confusing people by, because I don't think it has to be that complicated. I don't think people want to know all the details, but I just want to know what the facts are so they can make better decisions. And that's what my goal is is try and improve that conversation so that when we understand revenue is increasing, it's coming from somewhere, it's coming from the taxpayers. And if our revenue is increasing, then our tax we're paying more taxes.
SPEAKER_01That's that's fair to say.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01The tax rate does not increase. Okay, doesn't have to. But you a taxpayer may pay more in taxes, right?
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Um, one more question on this, and then we'll we'll shift because I think uh this comes up quite often. Uh, the no-new tax revenue. Why is that a goal for you? And what are kind of the consequences if that's implemented, let's say.
SPEAKER_02Right. So the goal for me is to make sure that the things that the state legislators are doing at the state level to help bring some tax relief to property tax relief to the constituents here in Albiline, Texas, are getting the benefit. And the problem is there's a disconnect because we look to our state legislators to fix our tax rate when it's actually up to the local government. And the local government is the one that increases or decreases how much our pack our our property taxes are. The appraisals are completely separate, but we think that it's a state level process, but it actually is a local level process that is resolved at the local level.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, okay, but but but on the no new tax revenue being a goal, why is that a goal for you and what are the consequences?
SPEAKER_02I think it's a goal for me right now because we have been taking more revenue in every year from the citizens. And I think it's with all the sacrifices that have been made to get this data center here, I think the the tension is it is the goal because I want to for people to experience some relief in the tax area. And when you're paying more and you're not seeing things be resolved, it creates a great discontent for a lot of people. And so that's where going back to the budget, figuring out what we're doing and where we're spending it to make sure we're being accountable to how we spend our tax revenue, I think is important. And it's not so much the no-new revenue rate, it's just that keeping the revenue from come additional revenue from coming out of taxpayer pockets. That's the goal, is to see what we can do to mitigate that. Because, and honestly, I'm not promising that that's what we can do because the more I look at it, the more I see the there's more there's more bills to pay than there is budget. But again, addressing the budget is another area. But it's not the goal, it's just that I want to be clear that we want to reduce the revenue so that our revenue asked so that residents can pay less revenue, aka taxes. So And the consequences, I didn't answer that. The consequences are that we'll have to make some sacrifices. We can't continue living, you know, outside the budget scope, you know, and that's one thing the revised budget comes in and we make a lot of changes. And you know, even last week there was um something that came out of the MIP, or this week, I guess, coming out of the MIP, that uh there's no question it wasn't it didn't discuss if it was budgeted or if it was an additional cost or things like that. So I think cleaning that up will help us understand the better picture, and we can't fix what we won't talk about. So the consequences will make sacrifices, I'm afraid.
SPEAKER_01So your goal would be keep revenue the same if we brought in $340 million last year, and that's including water and and sewage and everything. Uh, if we brought in $340 million in revenue last year, we should only bring in $340 million this year as well.
SPEAKER_02Well, and that's that's another conversation because water is a different, a different beast.
SPEAKER_01I'm just talking about the budget total.
SPEAKER_02The budget. Well, I'm and I guess I'm talking about general fund because the general funds are.
SPEAKER_01We'll say $140 million, roughly, right? So $140 million we brought in last year, and you say this year we we are not bringing in any more money, we're only bringing in $140 million.
SPEAKER_02That would be the goal to start at least with that, because what happens is every year there is a a general 3.5% increase in the budget that is accounted for because they're assuming we're gonna increase the revenue, right? And so that's where I I don't know. I haven't had these conversations, that's not something that's been easy to do, but I think we've got to start standing still somewhere so that we can figure out what's going on and what what is working and what's not. And I know as a a a personal in my personal life, I just can't keep increasing my budget every year because I want to. I have to evaluate it all the time to say, am I can I is this something that's still allowed in my budget and is it working for me or not? And I just haven't seen that done publicly, and it maybe it happens. I'm I'm I'm never assuming that people are nefariously or trying to do stuff behind closed doors. I just haven't seen it. And those are questions that I've been asking for and would like to have the citizens be able to see in a little bit more transparent way.
SPEAKER_01So in a in a practical way, if if 140 we brought in last year and we keep it the same this year, it's 140 the same. Um, but inflation happens, right? 3% inflation uh and uh salary increases, you know, fire wants to have a 4% increase, right? So there's 4% that if that were agreed to, we would need an additional 4% budget, right, to increase in order to pay them, or uh really 4% would have to be cut from the budget to balance out that 4% increase in order to stay to keep at 140 million. So how do you uh approach that where the goal is net uh revenue neutral uh but you're wanting to increase certain services? Does that mean you look at cutting, not just streamlining, but you're cutting uh services elsewhere? And if that is the the the option, what do you see uh where is the waste right now outside of of streamlining? Because I feel like a lot of people like to throw doge or streamline it.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01You're not gonna get um four to eight million in streamlining services. You'll get you'll get a little bit, but where is the practical amount of money gonna come from?
SPEAKER_02Well, practically it's as someone who's sitting on this side, I what I'd like to say is I gotta look under the hood first. I don't know what I'm dealing with. I'm just doing with what I have been able to do research on. Um, you know, like last year it was brought up, the health fund or the public health fund was operating in a 400,000 deficit, meaning it had to be supplemented by the budget. That's a place that I think is good to look at. I I don't know if that's accurate, but that was just mentioned in casually in a meeting. And so that's some place I'd like to look. Are we operating in all the different services? But unfortunately, I don't have access to that information as a citizen. So again, my goal is to look at that, but there may be that it's been streamlined and it has been done. I just it hasn't been publicly done so that I'm aware of those things. I'm not above saying, hey, I didn't know this, I didn't understand this, like the $300. Million dollars that was presented in the capital improvement projects that were mentioned last week. You know, some of those things I'm not aware of because they're in the works in ways that citizens don't always get to stay connected with. And I think that's where I'm trying to bring to the table the light of what we have to do. But we have to have hard conversations. And the sad thing is lack of communication, this is my new thing, is lack of communication presents uh creates misinformation, confusion, and frustration. And the data center coming in with all these billions of dollars had led to some misinformation of what we should expect from them. And I think it's time to start having some real conversations of what that looks like. And I think the pre-budget workshop was a great way to start. And I think Marjorie did a great job of presenting the projected numbers that are going to be coming in the next year to give us a more realistic picture of what we're moving forward. And I'm a little, it's a little sobering to realize this growth is still not here yet, or we may not, it's not fully realized in some ways. I mean, the 20 million is great in the sales tax, but the growth of what we could potentially see is not fully realized, I think, for a few more years in the long term. But that's just the numbers I'm operating of. I don't have a the full picture.
SPEAKER_01What uh what specifically as far as oh we haven't seen the growth?
SPEAKER_02Well, like we're not seeing the 15% property tax values that those aren't coming in quite yet.
SPEAKER_01And and you know, like even it was mentioned and I'm trying to remember which graph it was where it's but and just real quick on that point, just for the listeners, those that that 15% uh comes in once they get their COs. Right. And so those should come online this year, and then that tax revenue starts coming in. So it's not that it was uh a surprise or or misinformation, it's just that the buildings had to be built first, then they're taxed, and then they go on low the tax rolls, you know, the next year, which will be this year.
SPEAKER_02Well, and I don't think the misinformation came from the city for sure. I don't think there's been enough information, but I don't think they mis misinformed people. I think people just start talking and they have these unexpects these these expectations of what they think they understand. I've done it too. I mean, like I'm like, oh, this is what I think should happen. I was like, oh, I'm wrong. It like that's part of the nature of growing in understanding and learning. I don't fault people for that. What I'm saying is well, what I was pointing to was I I remember there was one chart that said we're gonna see some growth, but maybe in 28 or 29, it's gonna you know decrease a little, but then it'll pop back up and we just don't know. And and so they're trying to project as well as they can, but there's a lot of unknown factors. And I think that's part of the thing that many people don't understand is we still don't know what we don't know, and we'll re we can realize it, but we can't bank on it until we start to see the numbers. And I think even for myself, trying to understand how we can benefit from this growth, we we can't we cannot capture revenue, which is what I've heard used a lot with this data center, because that's a lot of money that could potentially be coming into our area with the property taxes. We can't capture that without capturing it from the citizens as well. Like it's not one, we can't pick and choose who we capture revenue from, it's from everybody across the board.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think you can you can shift more towards well, I don't want to I don't want to put policy in in your on your page, but um so as kind of speaking of of data centers, Great Lakes Cheese, we've got expansion out at the base, um, with the B-21s coming in sometime in the next you know five to eight years, let's say, um, we've had a lot of growth. Um we're seeing housing, child care issues pop up as a result of that growth, and and there's always growing pains. But as we grow fairly fairly quickly, how do we kind of protect the soul of Abling? The the people that have been here for 20, 40, 50 years, maybe they're retirees, maybe they're lower income. Um how do we make sure we don't bleed them away during this expansion period of two or six years? Um how do you approach it from the city council and is there a role that the city council plays in that? Because everyone wants City Council to be the solution for it, and sometimes government's not the solution. Right. So how do you approach that?
SPEAKER_02Well, I agree there's a lot of areas that are we're struggling with that government is not the solution, and that's the hard part. But I do think by doing a better job of communicating the vision and the plan, you know, I was recently reading through the comprehensive plan um from 2023 and just seeing what was the vision cast there, and um it hadn't been communicated too well to as someone who's been trying to pay attention to what's going on, in my opinion, and I wish they would have done a better communicating a job communicating because oh wow, I see some of the things that we're doing now being reflected from what was planned back in 2023. So I think these next few years, the key thing is to really over-communicate where we're going because I am a planner by nature, and so that's a gift that I have, but my husband is not, and so sometimes I'm like, where are we going? He's like, I don't know, we'll get there. So we have to find that balance of not being like so detail-oriented that people are like, aha, you didn't do it. We don't want to, we don't want to set us up to fail, but at least let people see where we're going. And I think when we cast vision, then people can go, okay, this is where we're working, this is the sacrifice that I'll probably have to make. It's worth it, but when we don't know what that looks like and and where we're going, it can feel like more of a frustration because we can't, we don't see the benefit of sacrificing now for the future. Um, and and I know that's hard to articulate because again, I'm on the outside looking in. These are things that I've done on my own just because I wanted to be a better participating citizen. This isn't something I thought, you know, how can I get in this position? But I now see this position could help further educating citizens and helping them to understand things that haven't always been explained as good as they could have been. Um so I think casting vision, I think housing, you know, I think we're starting to there's got to be some of this come online. We've got inventory coming in, it's an inventory problem. They've been working on it. I've sat through all of the zoning changes, all of the requests for these kind of projects. It's not that they haven't been there, it just probably wasn't communicated that, hey, this is where we're going. And, you know, supply and demand is a real thing. And for the government to get involved in that is is really kind of touchy because there's always consequences. And so um, you know, with that comes just some lifestyle changes. If if how if daycare's a struggle for a lot of people, we have to rethink how do we handle that because that's the way our free market works is we adapt and change as the the problems come up. And it it stinks right now. I'm not saying that it's not we don't have to make hard choices, but um it's it's scary. I'm talking about a lady who was really terrified about getting kicked out of her apartment because she has no place to go for a mold problem. Like there are real concerns citizens have, but the fear is if I lose my house, where am I gonna go? So I'm not trying to be flippant about it, but at the same time, that's where the community can come in and step up and help and be supportive in ways that the government is not ever meant to be. And I think Appleine's a great place to see that happen in action.
SPEAKER_01So let's talk specifics as far as housing and what you like that the city is currently doing, what you don't like, and then what your solutions would be uh if you were elected an on-city council and part of that that strategic vision. So housing currently, what do you like or not like that the city is doing or not doing?
SPEAKER_02Housing, I like that they're trying to streamline the process to make it easier to get some houses done because um that's part of what slows that entire process down is the permitting and the code enforcement and things like that. So I like that about that. The problem is we don't have enough staff, and so that goes back to some conversations that have been had lately of making our our housing or our staffing competitive for the market, and you know, the data center is taking a lot of the good employees right now, and so that's another challenge. And like there's just a lot of things that even the best made plans can go awry. So, you know, I I don't think that I think we just have to kind of adapt and and uh sorry, my thing's falling off. Um, I think the housing uh moving forward, I think if we can get some more staffing to help get some of through those those jobs faster, the thing I'm concerned about is the nap the housing need is so great that we're just kind of approving anything. Like, I don't know what what is it? Someone mentioned that, you know, the RS8, which is residential housing for single family eight, which is larger lots, that's reducing in our city. And, you know, back in the 2023 comprehensive report, it said 86% of our housing was single family, right? And so we've been moving more into multifamily duplexes and things like that, but where's that line? And so I'm concerned that we don't know what that line is and what we're trying to obtain. And so I'm I'm concerned that we might continue to start improving things and then we get in the mess where we have, you know, like multi multifamily out on FM 707 towards 1750 out there towards town. They're trying to put in 200 uh 240 units, I think. But that's not close to anything, so that's a transportation issue. That's uh there's all these other things that are coming that could come up because we put uh we allowed a multifamily to go in a place that didn't have some of the accessibility that typically that's found in that type of um housing development.
SPEAKER_01So you would want to I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I just want to kind of summarize uh would your position be I want to be a little bit more um I want to pull back on zoning, allowing zoning for housing in Abilene, or what's what's your takeaway on that? So zoning, what's your approach to it? I'm gonna push back on it, or I'm gonna be looser on the regulations for zoning so that we can encourage more housing? Because you you know it's kind of one or the other. If you're wanting more housing, right, almost by default, you have to be a little bit more aggressive in allowing more zoning for housing. Uh if you say, well, we've got to tighten up and be a little more strict on on zoning, fair enough. But you're gonna stifle housing, which is gonna increase rent. So you uh I know everyone wants best of both worlds, but here as a city councilman or a woman, you know, you're making the decision. All right, what's my approach? Is it we've got to get more housing, and so we've got to loosen up the regulations a little bit, or no, we gotta stay the course because that's Abilene, and yeah, we're gonna pay the price and higher rent, but we want to push back on loosening up the zoning regulations.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I don't think we need to necessarily pull back. I think we just need to know what is like are we wanting to keep it? Like, are we wanting 25% multifamily, you know, different duplexes like that? What is what is the ratio of what we're trying to obtain?
SPEAKER_01Well, and I'm gonna put it on you. You're the candidate. Right. What do you see that Abling needs?
SPEAKER_02So I think I think a lot of the housing is coming in, and I just want to make sure that we're not gonna now I I I I think it's coming in, and I just want to make sure that we're keeping in line with the plan that we have for the city and making sure that um, you know, I just I think I think these are great questions to be honest. Um, and I think we have to just be careful what we approve and and um and make sure that we're keeping it in line with what abling is. I think the housing is coming in. What we're getting the housing in, but we just want to make sure that we don't just lower the standard so much so that we just have random things all over and and there's no cohesion into what makes our city. And and again, going back to that comprehensive plan that I just was finished reading, is there's strategic ways to to make sure housing goes in in locations that benefit the community and don't create more problems than solutions. And so I think the inventory is coming in, we're moving in a good direction. Um, and so we just want to make sure that we're not just 10 years down the road go, what were we thinking? And so, you know, I think there's just got to be balance of keeping the integrity of the city in certain locations and not just saying yes to everything. So I guess in the in essence, I would say we just want to be we'll pull back a little bit to make sure that we're not just throwing anything to the wall to see what sticks, but make sure it's gonna be something that is beneficial to our community for the long haul because the inventory is coming in.
SPEAKER_01Even at the price of possibly increasing housing uh costs.
SPEAKER_02Well, I don't think I I kind of think that's a I don't think that's the issue anymore because of how much is on the docket and what I've seen come through. I think we have it coming. We just need to make sure that we're keeping in check that we're not going so far that we can't pull back. So I don't think I don't think we uh I mean inventory is coming and it is gonna start shifting. Um it's just it's it's taking longer than I think possibly the people who saw this in the beginning were were thinking it would.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I think the concern would be or highlight the issue that it's it's being built now in part because the city has been more aggressive in allowing the zoning, right? So if you pull back, you say, well, it's already in the pipeline, but if you pull back, it will diminish that that pipeline of housing and vice versa, right? So I think there's a there's a balance there, I think, where the listeners are just trying to get a sense of well, what what is the solution that you as a council person would be proposing? You know, it's it's good to get feedback, but at the end of the day, you press the button yes or no on an issue. Right. Is that button being pressed more for uh stricter regulation on zoning, or is that button being pushed more for for housing to lower the rent price? There's not a right or wrong answer. I think this is a personal preference and a personal belief. I think that's where the listeners are curious of well which which way do you have to push? There's pain on either side, which way do you push?
SPEAKER_02Right. Great. That's great. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um so what's uh on the campaign trail? I feel like every candidate always goes in with two, three top priorities, and this is what's motivated me, this is why I'm running, and you know, whether it's streets, public safety, uh a small business, pick your issue that you're passionate about. Um but along the campaign trail, you meet a ton of people that you've never met before in your life, and uh they all have their issues and concerns. And so I'm always curious, is there an issue that you have discovered along the campaign trail that you weren't, it wasn't in your top ten at the time at the start of the the trail, but you have gone, man, that is a that is a big need, we need to address it. Um, or it's been something where you went in on an issue hardcore uh uh stance and hearing from the community and and the voters, you go and man, over the last three, four, five months, they presented a good argument, and I'm actually um uh more informed now and I'm going to push this other way. Anything come to mind on either either of those?
SPEAKER_02Well, I'm kind of unique candidate because I started doing this for myself and started talking to the community a long ago before I ever started even thinking about running for counsel. And so I really felt like I kind of had a good um connection with people before I even considered to run. And so I would just say that being on the campaign trail has confirmed that I've been listening and hearing well what the constituents of this area want. And so now it's not everybody that you know there's been some pushback, like, you know, I think there are people who struggle with trusting that the government's gonna do what they say they're gonna do or doing what's best for us. And there's some trust issues, and I've had people push back and say trust issues, and so then that clues me in to go, oh, that's not part of their experience. And so I've really learned to not only appreciate that it's not well again, complainers are the ones that you hear the first, uh the loudest and the most frequent, and it's and that's not always representative of what our community is about. And so one of the biggest things I've had is that I've experienced so many nice people and willing to talk about things, and so in having those conversations, no, they want to be heard, they want to know their voice matters, they don't even know that a lot of times what's going on to even get started, and that's been a joy of mine to be able to connect with people. And so I would say that because of the unique nature of how I started this, I've actually been more and more confirmed. It's been more and more confirmed that I am on the right track, that transparency and communication are key to any healthy relationship, honestly. You know, even between elected officials and city staff and the the citizens that live in this in the community. And so um it's kind of affirmed it and shore up what areas really matter most more than dissuade me from continue on my path.
SPEAKER_01What um we you kind of talked a little bit about it earlier as far as um taking a moment to see the forest? Uh sometimes you're, you know, as a as government, you're reactive, you're getting hit in the face with the branches, and you're sometimes not looking at where we're gonna be in 10 or 15 years, right? And so you need to have the overall 30,000 view in order to make the intelligent decisions, uh day-to-day decisions. And so what kind of abling do you hope exists or that we reach in 10 to 15 years? What is that that goal of, hey, we're going through some pain issues, whether it's housing, whether it's child care, et cetera. But as a community, through all of this, with the increased revenue, with the decisions we make over the next uh three years uh on let's say your your first term, what do you tell the the voters out there this is where we're we're trying to bring abling to in 10 years?
SPEAKER_02So I think the biggest thing that we've struggled with for a long time is our identity and knowing who we are on an individual level. I just even that's something that's pass passionate of mine on an individual level, but as a city, we don't really have our like what's our one thing? Like, what are we known for? We're known for several things, but I really hope that we can find that one thing that we can all rally around and be like this is us, right? And so I while that sounds kind of shallow and silly, it really helps give us focus and direction to where we want to go. And so, you know, Dais is an active part of our community. We'll be as long as we're allowed to keep this base open, it is who we are. We can't deny that part of us. And so with the changes coming with Dais, I mean, we want to make sure we integrate that, you know, we have that identity. And so sometimes it feels a little disjointed right now and and back to vision. So I think in 10 years, I hope we have have established who we are, and that we're not trying to be like Dallas, we're not trying to be, you know, like a small city. We are a small city, but I don't know, a town. We we figured out who we are and we can own it and then be able to bring in businesses and families and and individuals accordingly. Um that may be an outside the box answer, but that's kind of what I I would see. Um in the three years, you know, I just want people to go, wow, I kind of know what's going on, and I feel that I have a voice to be heard, and it matters in Abilene. And um I think I have so much appreciation for what's been going on for a long time because we've been operating in a way that it was it was the way it was, it's the way it's always been. And I'm I know I'm asking for people to give a chance to try something new and a little bit outside the box. And so I appreciate all those who've been working and doing all the planning and the forethought of what we had as a city, but I think we've got to start incorporating the citizens more because you know, back in your other question, when people come and speak, they want to know that they're heard and their and their neighborhoods matter and that the things that they're used to matter and that they have an ability to be protected and and not have everything changed so much that they don't even recognize their city. And so that's where we have an identity would really help move things forward in a in a better way and keep us focused on the things that um we need to do in order to accomplish that.
SPEAKER_01Uh I think having the the feedback and and the conversations about the identity of of Abilene are important. Um, but I think where listeners would also like to hear is uh if you're a council member, you're one of seven with a much larger voice uh towards setting that identity. And in those meetings, strategic or otherwise, your voice of what you envision uh is going to be one of seven, uh uh driving that vision. And so I th what I would like to know is not just what the process would be of of figuring out what the identity that's good, that's important, but for you, you're now sitting up there on council, you're making the decision. You're no longer the one um saying, hey, be more transparent. You are part of the problem, you're part of the solution, right? So you're up there and someone says, Council, what is your vision for Abline in 10 years? Where do you, you may not get us there because you're only one of seven voices, but what is your, let's say you've already gotten the feedback or you get no additional feedback between now and your entire term. What does Tammy Fogle want to see Abilene be in 10 years?
SPEAKER_02Uh hub of West Texas. I mean, I think we are a we are in the middle of nowhere, and so we are we are a place that people come to, but we are West Texas. We are we are the country meets a little bit of the city. Um, you know, we are we are a community, we are, we have, we have we are West Texas. I mean, we are cowboy, we are, you know, I think we are what represents most people's idea of what Texas, when you think of Texas, you think you think of what Abilene is. And so I think we need to hold on to that and not lose by coming more urban or, you know, too urban. I mean, I think there's a balance, but I just think that, you know, the things like the West Texas Fair and Rodeo and the Heritage Day, those are things that shaped us and brought people to our community. And I think we need to continue to press into those kind of aspects because that's what um creates that um it it produces the fruit that I think we really want here in town. And so, you know, I know we're a lot more than that, but I think that's kind of what I see us as people come, you know, to the frontier Texas. Uh a guy I follow, he's called the English, uh, the Texas uh Englishman in Texas, and he came and did a little thing on Abilene, and it just was so beautiful because it it highlighted the beauty of our city. And I think sometimes living in it, we can forget that because we're in the thick of it. But I saw seeing that just caught a glimpse of the amazing things we have through those kind of events, the parades, the the the competitions, the things like that. It brings in the revenue that we need and it it provides um just some interesting aspects that no other city in in Texas, I think, provides.
SPEAKER_01Uh, what do you think is gonna be the most difficult part for you serving on on council? And you can tackle that any way you want.
SPEAKER_02Government moves slow. And I am not slow. I am a fast thinker, I'm a fast processor, I like to move and change and solve problems and get to the next thing. And so I think that finding that rhythm that's healthy, and I don't mind pushing a little bit, but I don't want to push so hard I run over things and destroy like destruction would be the worst case scenario. That would be the outcome if I if I destroyed what was there. Uh want to work within the system, but I do think it's gonna be hard just knowing learning that cadence. Even though I've been watching it for a while, I think it's gonna be a challenge just. Learning all the different protocols that have to be done because there are laws that have to be followed, and it is important that we follow those and check those boxes. And um, but also just finding balance because there's lots of stuff I want people to know about, and you cannot expose everybody, everything to everybody all at once because it'll be like a fire hydrant, it'll overwhelm and they'll run away in fear, you know. And so just finding also the the rhythm of how do you start keeping people involved in the conversation of what's happening because a lot of people aren't even paying attention to it, you know. So again, just finding that tension of how to help be more transparent and communicate better, but not to the point where everyone's annoyed with you, you know, because you do have to work with the other side uh squeaky wheels, you know, do get the grease, but they're not necessarily their favorite. So, you know, and and and I I will say that's what one of the things I've learned just being a part of it is is getting to see the relationship aspect of it and how that is key to moving forward and and having a healthy uh working council.
SPEAKER_01What's a uh first impression or a belief that the first impression of you that people have that that is wrong or that you'd like to correct?
SPEAKER_02I complain all the time. And you know, I I I can see why they think that. I'm not insulted by it. In fact, it's really hard to insult me. I'll have to be honest. Like, you know, people probably give me back-handed compliments all the time, and I assume the best in people. So I'm just like, unless you tell me I'm being rude, I don't pick up on that. But I see why they would probably see that just because of the context of what I'm doing. And if they haven't had a conversation with me or see the other side of me, it can seem like there's one particular focus that I am, and that's not who I'm it's just a picture of it, it's a part of it. But anytime I interact with people, I find a different experience. They're they don't walk away in disgust, like, oh, you're just you just are so angry and you just complain all the time, and you just you just are self-centered, and you know, I don't even heard people say that about me. But I'm just saying, like, they don't like the the interpersonal interaction really helps overcome that, I think. And that's what I really tried to do is is not just be a person who makes loud noises, but also interacts with people on a a one-on-one basis to make it um come across a different different way. It's a filter thing differently.
SPEAKER_01Uh two more questions. Um on the federal level, at least and and state level, we see a lot of kind of full-on um political warfare, and it can get really divisive. I think we we talk about America being united, or we prefer to see it united. We hate, you know, left or right, conservative, liberal, it doesn't matter. Everyone kind of laments, oh, we're we're we seem so divisive, right? Uh and oh, we should just uh you know unify. But then when it comes to an issue that uh either side is very passionate about, it's it's them putting their you know their their foot down and going, nope, this is my stand, how dare you think otherwise? And and that's what bleeds into all the other issues. And and that's true on on local issues as well, city council. City council is much more um personal than state or or federal level. Um how do you how would you approach bringing passion uh and and possibly some uh divisive votes or viewpoints um but still maintain a hey, this is Abilene and and we want to move forward as a city. How do you how do you reconcile those two?
SPEAKER_02Again, I have a unique perspective because I've been dealing with a lot of these kinds of issues for several years now. And one of the things I found is that if we identify people with their beliefs, then we treat them differently rather than identifying people as people and their beliefs as separate. Like you're not defined by what you think, you're def you are a person who has worth and value. And so I cannot like what you think, but I can still treat you as a decent person. And I've tried to constantly engage that way, especially in city council meetings, because sometimes I can say stuff that might step on some people's toes, not intentionally, sometimes intentionally, but I always try to go and reconnect with people because I think relationships, having those ability to have those conversations and not let it offend us is key to moving forward. And I think I've demonstrated that, you know, I do have a lot of passionate beliefs. I'm not a weak, I am an opinionated person, but at the same time, I know that we have to work together on areas that we agree on, and I've learned how to do that so much better because there are things that we can all agree on, especially at the local level, which has surprised me. Like I'm surprised that there are some things that I believe that I think we should have happen here that people who would disagree on me on some really other big issues, they agree and we can work together on that. So to me, I've been encouraged and excited to see that at this level we have a unique opportunity that the federal level and the state level has more, there's more contention, I think, there, but but because we know each other, we have to stay engaged and we have to continue to work together and not just completely throw people out or dismiss them because we don't like what they say. I mean, sometimes I know I say things that offend people, but I hope at the end of the day I'm doing it, people understand I'm doing it for a reason that it's not to offend, but to try and um further a better conversation. And so um that's one thing that I've been pleasantly surprised about is how when you're on a local level, you can if you can find that common ground, you can really accomplish so much more than if you just go, well, if you write people off because you think, well, they're not gonna like me or they're not gonna like that issue. Or I mean, like there are people at sitting in council in the in the in the day-to-day meet those regular meetings that we don't agree on a lot, but we can sit and have pleasant conversations and we've even agreed on some issues that you know it was fun when they were like, I agree with you. And I was like, wait, what? You know, because it matters, there's there's some differences that matter on the local level that that we can all rally behind and get behind and hopefully use that to the to better to make Abilene a better place.
SPEAKER_01Regardless of the outcome of this race, what's an issue that you see yourself still being passionate about moving forward?
SPEAKER_02Making sure people know that they have the opportunity to have their voice matter. It is it is something that somehow along the way we've forgotten what it's like to just speak and think freely without having to overcorrect 20 steps down the road, and it's paralyzed a lot of people because you know there's still groups of people who, if you say the wrong thing, they will try to destroy you and make you a person on grata. And I want to hope I want to help be a solution the antithesis maybe to that, where you can speak freely, you can say stupid things, you can ask stupid questions, because again, back to the worth and value of a person, it doesn't define who you are. It's just we all have to learn and grow. And if we don't allow each other to make mistakes and grow together, then then we're um we're not gonna head up in a good place. So keeping keeping people um keeping encouraging people to speak and let their voice matter, whether it's at city council or in any area of life, um, education is you know is key to that, and I hope to continue doing that so um the the voting starts next Monday, I believe, for early voting, and then election day is June 13th in this runoff.
SPEAKER_01Um are you uh optimistic about the turnout, or you know, this will be the fourth or fifth election for voters just this year, and we haven't even gotten to the general. Um are people excited? Are they fatigued, or how are you how are you motivating people to get out for another time?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's that's a that is that's the fun part talking to people like yesterday. I voted for you, and I was like, well, I hope not, because we need to check that ballot, you know. And they're like, oh, I realized that was the wrong thing. So yes, I I honestly have no grid. I look I'm a numbers person, I like to look and see, and so I was pretty spot on what we expected, what I expected for the May turnout, and it was I was expecting about 3,000. We had about 3,400, and so I didn't know what to expect with this primer we just had, and we showed up in numbers greater than I expected or was predicted. So I have no grid because last year the runoff was the number that turned out for the May election. So in theory it should be less, and um, but I do I do hear people getting excited, and I think having all these elections has had a surprising effect because they're like, oh, I get to vote, and they know what's going on more so where when it's in isolation, they they don't recognize, oh, it's time to vote. So I'm not sure, you know, what the outcome is. I don't have a grid. I mean, I'm I'm hoping that Abilene will show up because that's my that would make me so happy to have people vote, you know, even when they're like, I'm not gonna vote for you. I'm like, okay, but still show up because your voice matters, you know. Although I've been told not to say that, but um, we'll see what happens. I I'm excited. I think um the momentum is building and we'll see what happens.
SPEAKER_01Very good. All right. Well, again, for those uh here in Abilene, go vote this coming Monday, uh early voting, and then that goes all next week, and then uh election day is June 13th. So um vote at least one more time, and then you can you can have a breather until the fall uh for the general election. So uh Tammy, thank you so much for being on the show. This has been very informative. Hopefully the listeners have gotten a little insight into into you and your kind of what you'll bring policy wise to the to the council and uh good luck.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, thank you so much for having me. This was a a very in engaging conversation, so I appreciate it.